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Author Topic: Small Paragon nerf  (Read 1904 times)

Grievous69

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Small Paragon nerf
« on: February 24, 2020, 12:51:01 AM »

All the talk about capital spam and how they're strong now got me thinking about the strongest ship in the game. It has amazing firepower, amazing defenses but it's weakness is speed. What if that was even more prominent by making Fortress shield shut down its engines. It makes sense to me that ''divert all energy to shields'' takes away everything else. I believe it could be explained easily and it would make Paragon even less mobile.

Feel free to give any other ideas on how would you tone down the mighty beast.
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TaLaR

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2020, 02:27:37 AM »

For all the talk of how powerful it is, I almost never pilot it. Conquest and Odyssey allow better player skill leverage imo. And are more convenient campaign-wise due to 8 Burn.

Fortress Shield is already a burden to AI in some cases. AI simply uses it too much:
- There is a behavior I call "suicide by fortress shield" when targeted AI Paragon converts incoming soft flux from TachLances into hard flux, when TL flux wouldn't have been enough to kill it.
- Dual Squalls on Conquest cause similar effect (correct counter is well-timed armor venting, not turtling up with Fortress Shield).

AI is very bad at using abilities that have strict timing requirements or drawbacks. Just look at any Burn drive ship. This would be very bad for Paragon as AI ship, but probably mean nothing for player piloting (I rarely use FS anyway).
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Grievous69

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2020, 02:45:13 AM »

Yeah I'm in the same boat, Paragon is too boring to fly and I prefer nimber craft (at least battlecruiser). But seeing how even Alex agreed that some capitals are strong, Paragon is the first outlier that comes to mind, I don't think any other capital is better than its DP. So I'm just trying to brainstorm some ideas to make it a bit less annoying to fight against. And you're right tho, AI seems to use Fortress shield at random almost.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2020, 02:48:53 AM »

If you turn engines down, the ship will save its momentum (including spin) anyway. So, you need to start turning and then turn on the FS in this case.
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bobucles

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2020, 04:37:56 AM »

For all the talk of how powerful it is, I almost never pilot it. Conquest and Odyssey allow better player skill leverage imo.
The AI is pretty efficient with flying a Paragon, that's the main reason it's so deadly. It's reasonably effective with its fortress shield and will toggle it fairly well in many situations. Sure there are a few AI exploits against it, but other ships have it far worse. Unfortunately the AI is so good that the player can't do too much to make it better. There are other ships that seriously suffer in AI hands such as phase ships and front line brawlers. The player does extremely good with those ships since they're over tuned to make up for AI weaknesses.

TaLaR

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2020, 04:46:34 AM »

Unfortunately the AI is so good that the player can't do too much to make it better.

Oh, player can do significantly better with Paragon as well. It's just not really necessary - player piloted Conquest/Odyssey with character skills kill fast enough, so move speed generally contributes more at that point (since it prevents enemies from fleeing).

AI is atrocious at target prioritization and easily splits attention between many ships instead of properly focus firing them one by one (why would you do that with a soft flux build?...).
AI also gets way less mileage out of TachLances than player, since it doesn't understand the timing part of it and doesn't vent anywhere near often enough.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2020, 05:51:54 AM »

In my experience the AI is extremely good with fortress shield, to the point it's frankly kinda crappy to play against. Much like regular shields it'd be really good if fortress shields couldn't be pulsed as much.
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Grievous69

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2020, 05:57:46 AM »

Much like regular shields it'd be really good if fortress shields couldn't be pulsed as much.
You mean it should have a cooldown or it should be gradually enveloping the normal shield like an additional layer?
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Megas

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2020, 10:22:08 AM »

My only problem with AI Paragon is it cannot use four lance loadouts very well.  Four lances murder any fleet that does not have a Radiant in it fast and at long range (well, longer than other weapons.).  AI will flux it out fast.

I like piloting Paragon.  It can snipe at things with lances.

Paragon does not need toning down.  It is expensive at 60 DP.  It better wreck things better than a 40 DP capital.
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2020, 02:36:50 PM »

You mean it should have a cooldown or it should be gradually enveloping the normal shield like an additional layer?
I mean I'd love a minimum active time and/or minimum inactive time when you toggle a shield. And the same for Fortress.
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FooF

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2020, 03:04:39 PM »

I think it's fine. It's designed to be a mobile battle station and lives up to the billing. I pilot one every so often and yes, it's plodding but it has "click to erase" capabilities that no other ship in the game can rival. It's at the top-tier, has no glaring weaknesses, but is a pain to carry around and deploy.

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Mordodrukow

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2020, 01:26:23 AM »

I think, 0.6->0.7 flux/dmg ratio and 100%->80% range buff changes will not kill the ship.

On the other hand, the change which i definetely dont wanna see is reduction of shield arc from 360° to 240°. It could be a huge pain in the ass and also it goes against the idea of Paragon design (because yes, it is mobile fortress). At the same time, reduction to 300° just means "substract some OP to install Extended shields".
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TaLaR

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2020, 01:56:56 AM »

100%->80% range buff changes will not kill the ship.

It might actually. Paragon already has Gauss Conquest as it's natural predator. AI isn't smart to properly exploit (hard-flux) range + speed advantage, but there really isn't much a Paragon can do against a competent Gauss Conquest.

Longest range hard flux energy weapons are Autopulse and Plasma at 700. With 80% ATC this means 1260.
Typical large ballistic weapon has 900 range. With 60% ITU this means 1440.
Oops, now Paragon is significantly(at capital speeds) outranged by every ballistic capital and essentially becomes an oversized punching bag.
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Mordodrukow

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2020, 02:28:13 AM »

It is general problem with energy-ballistic balance?

Anyway, i m not insist on that nerf. Just dont see any other way to nerf the ship, but not kill it. Speed and maneuverability? Already at the bottom. Flux stats? Need nerf em to the ground to achieve real impact. Shield arc? Said above. Armor? May be...

Also, may be just increase the size of ship. By 20% or something like that. Will affect quality of life. Because right now, as for me, Paragon is too comfortable. Yes, it has low speed, but anyway the hardest battles right now is those where you have to bordercamp.
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Igncom1

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Re: Small Paragon nerf
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2020, 03:22:06 AM »

For a ship that has 50% more deployment cost in a battle over the standard onslaught. It's close to all right.

I'd be ok with an armour nerf I suppose? Give the mighty onslaught an even stronger edge in armour tanking?
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