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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Making the Hyperion Useful  (Read 2683 times)

AxleMC131

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2020, 08:59:04 PM »

... The PPT penalty isn't that much once you factor in that you can essentially teleport into and away from PPT range almost instantly. I think the PPT range is 3000, and the teleport range is 1500, so should be out of PPT range in 2 teleports. So about in 2 seconds

This is actually a really good point I'd completely overlooked. Ships only lose PPT while in "conflict range" with enemy forces, outside of that it holds steady.
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TaLaR

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2020, 12:18:02 AM »

I'm just gonna repeat what I said from a recent almost exact Hyperion thread. Its system needs to go, it's way too strong with 0 counterplay

Defending from Hyperion is quite similar to defending from phase frigates. Not impossible, just takes your full concentration on the task.
For omni shielded ships you either keep constant 360 or keep shield down and raise it reactively as Hyperion picks the spot to attack you from. Shield will be up a bit before Hyperion materializes and shoots.
Front shielded ships have to group together back to back, no way to survive alone.
Some ship systems can counter too, like phase skimmer.

But while AI Hyperion can be caught and destroyed, a perfectly piloted Hyperion is pretty much invulnerable as long as PPT/CR lasts. Timing window between sequential teleports is so small that beams often fail to register single tick even if you materialize right into them, while projectiles need to be right on top of Hyperion at exact moment it materializes to hit.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2020, 12:19:47 AM by TaLaR »
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Grievous69

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2020, 12:35:51 AM »

Oh don't get me wrong I never had trouble fighting them, it was from the AI perspective that there's hardly any counterplay since they don't know how to react. I was just explaining why it will always be super expensive as long as it has the current system.
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Please don't take me too seriously.

TaLaR

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2020, 02:16:13 AM »

Current AI is completely oblivious to any manner of shield bypass. This isn't even a problem unique to phase/teleport - simply shooting exposed corners with Tach Lances (when target's shield is not yet fully deployed) falls into same category.

I'd like to see better opponent AI rather than have Hyperion and phase frigates nerfed into the ground.
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Plantissue

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2020, 09:13:11 AM »

All AI controlled ships try to aim at the centre of the ship. But the AI controlled Hyperion does know to teleport to the rear of ships and fire so it will bypass any frontally fixed shields.
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TaLaR

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2020, 10:50:54 AM »

All AI controlled ships try to aim at the centre of the ship. But the AI controlled Hyperion does know to teleport to the rear of ships and fire so it will bypass any frontally fixed shields.

It targets spot behind the enemy yes, BUT doesn't take current distance to target into account. Which leads to appearing in front of target and getting pummeled when Hyperion does so from too far.
AI also can use teleport only about third as often as system cooldown actually allows, which makes the above situation even more deadly.
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Plantissue

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2020, 07:23:07 AM »

You say that, but since AI Hyperion can take out Eagles and Dominators alone, it can't be as bad as you are making it out to be. Sure the behaviour of AI Hyperions aren't perfect, but no AI ships are.
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TaLaR

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2020, 07:45:39 AM »

Perfectly piloted Hyperion is essentially invulnerable while PPT/CR lasts and can keep unload Mining/Heavy blaster shots into target of it's choice non stop. Only constantly raised 360 shield protects against it.

Compared to that AI Hyperion is waste of DP. AI needs ideal duel circumstances without distractions to be able to kill Eagle/Dominator, which usually won't happen in a fleet battle.

No AI ship is perfect, but simple ships like Eagle display decent approximation of what the ship can do. AI tries to pilot Hyperion as any other frigate. It's not. It could have 0 normal move speed and still be viable, that's how dependent on teleport Hyperion is.
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Plantissue

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Re: Making the Hyperion Useful
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2020, 09:21:31 AM »

Taking your faulty logic of comparing player capability with AI capability, the Dominator would be a good use of DP as its capabilites when under AI control matches closely with when player control. Why would you compare player controlled with AI controlled?

As I keep telling you the AI knows to teleport behind other ships. It also knows when to teleport away. What other AI ship has that capability? You keep insisting that the AI uses Hyperion as same as any other ship, but the AI does not. Is it as intelligent as the player? No, but why even compare with a human? Nobody calls the AI Doom bad because it isn't as intelligent as the player. It remains just as useful as AI controlled, irrespective of how well the player can use it. That a ship can be greatly boosted in power when personally piloted does not diminish its worth as an AI controlled ship in any way.

AI controlled ships should be compared with other AI controlled ships. Player controlled ships should be compared with player controlled ships. On both accounts the Hyperion does well. Oustandingly well in the case of player controlled.

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