Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3

Author Topic: Harder than darksoul games  (Read 5706 times)

Mondaymonkey

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 777
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 06:51:25 AM »

i got too many fleets (suply usage was 6-7 and fuel usage +30)

That is`n that much to make a problem. Please tell, have you any logistic (non-military) ships in your fleet, like freighters, tanker, salvage rigs, etc?

is there mod that will reduce supply usage let say -50%?

Not sure there is such mod, but it is definitely there are vanilla-game skills that decrease supply and fuel consumption (-25%). Usually it`s enough to forget a problem.
Logged
I dislike human beings... or I just do not know how to cook them well.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 07:38:02 AM »

Darksouls isn't even a hard game. It's just good at fooling people that they've done a challenge that can only be done with experience of memorisation of attack patterns. This whole "git gud" business is just terrible.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2991
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2020, 07:53:00 AM »

Darksouls isn't even a hard game. It's just good at fooling people that they've done a challenge that can only be done with experience of memorisation of attack patterns. This whole "git gud" business is just terrible.
Well yeah but the fact that new players have a hard time with it still remains. Darksouls and Starsector are kinda similar seeing how you really need to understand the mechanics and have some knowledge about the game to be able do well. Which imo is a good way of balancing things instead of requiring that a player has inhuman reflexes like some bullet hell or platformer games.

The biggest issue for new players is the fleet management. It's hard to eyeball how a particular ship in shop will do without trying it out first. Same goes for weapons. I'd say the missions in main menu almost feel like a tutorial after the actual tutorial, unless you're a fan of reloading saves in campaign. And the best/worst thing is the autofit. I can see the use for new players but how can he/she know that the autofit build is actually doing something in combat. To me autofit just seems like something you use when you have multiple of the same ships or just wanna put literally any weapon on a clunker ship. If I were a new player, I'd rather experiment with everything so I don't get the ''I obviously need more ships'' feel some new players get when they use bad builds and fleet comps.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

Gregorovitch

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 23
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2020, 10:51:49 AM »

The biggest issue for new players is the fleet management. It's hard to eyeball how a particular ship in shop will do without trying it out first. Same goes for weapons. I'd say the missions in main menu almost feel like a tutorial after the actual tutorial, unless you're a fan of reloading saves in campaign. And the best/worst thing is the autofit. I can see the use for new players but how can he/she know that the autofit build is actually doing something in combat. To me autofit just seems like something you use when you have multiple of the same ships or just wanna put literally any weapon on a clunker ship. If I were a new player, I'd rather experiment with everything so I don't get the ''I obviously need more ships'' feel some new players get when they use bad builds and fleet comps.

Speaking as a noob with about, I don't know I ain't got Steam to count it for me here, maybe 50 hours in this game although you are right that it is virtually impossible for a new player to know how a particular ship could or should perform looking at in the shop (I still can't do that, I rely completely on watching them in the field) I don't think this is the biggest issue for learning how to play.

I think there are two bigger ones which are very much related:

1. The flux/overload/shield/armour system and the resultant necessity (usually) for cat and mouse combat. I am not aware of any previous game that uses a system like this and any new player is most likely to be completely stumped as to why they are getting their arses handed to them to begin with ("begin with" equating to three or four times more play time than the average AAA action title takes to complete). It's not just complicated, it's totally unfamiliar.

2. The plethora of confusing weapon types and variants. Many games have a rock, paper, scissors model which is usually quite simple and familiar, but this one is more like (rock, paper, whatever)^2 except that a rock looks like a sheet of paper, the paper is scrunched up to look like a rock and whatever is just, well, whatever. The new player has no hope whatever of understanding what all these weapons do and how they should be used, certainly not until they've played for three or four times as long as the average AAA title etc. But the real kicker is the way these weapon specs interact with the flux/overload/shield/armour system. That's were the ^2 comes from.

Not that I'm in any way complaining, it's what makes this game great, sets it apart, but IMHO if something quite imaginative is not done to ease understanding of all this stuff when it gets released on Steam it is not difficult to imagine the cacophonous whining and avalanches of -ve reviews that will ensue.

Dark Souls may have been difficult, but the principle behind it, monsters having specific attack patterns you had to avoid and specific weaknesses you had to to exploit is hardly new or unique. You could argue that that's all that's really going on here but the difference is in Dark Souls you are just trying to whack your foe with a sword, not rocket science, whereas here it's much more complicated or certainly seems to be to the new player.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2991
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2020, 11:00:40 AM »

1. The flux/overload/shield/armour system and the resultant necessity (usually) for cat and mouse combat. I am not aware of any previous game that uses a system like this and any new player is most likely to be completely stumped as to why they are getting their arses handed to them to begin with ("begin with" equating to three or four times more play time than the average AAA action title takes to complete). It's not just complicated, it's totally unfamiliar.
Mechwarrior games have pretty similar mechanics, even the weapon grouping is similar except there's no autofire there. But yeah coming across this system first time ever is no easy thing. You just need time to get the feel for it.
Logged
Please don't take me too seriously.

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3019
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2020, 11:22:14 AM »

As for me, the hardest part of the gameplay was to learn to hold Shift in a combat. Helps a lot. Not true for some ships though... Odyssey, for example.

There is an in-game setting to invert the shift key so turn-to-cursor is the default.
Logged

lethargie

  • Commander
  • ***
  • Posts: 183
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #21 on: February 17, 2020, 11:50:39 AM »

The biggest issue for new players is the fleet management. It's hard to eyeball how a particular ship in shop will do without trying it out first. Same goes for weapons. I'd say the missions in main menu almost feel like a tutorial after the actual tutorial, unless you're a fan of reloading saves in campaign. And the best/worst thing is the autofit. I can see the use for new players but how can he/she know that the autofit build is actually doing something in combat. To me autofit just seems like something you use when you have multiple of the same ships or just wanna put literally any weapon on a clunker ship. If I were a new player, I'd rather experiment with everything so I don't get the ''I obviously need more ships'' feel some new players get when they use bad builds and fleet comps.

Speaking as a noob with about, I don't know I ain't got Steam to count it for me here, maybe 50 hours in this game although you are right that it is virtually impossible for a new player to know how a particular ship could or should perform looking at in the shop (I still can't do that, I rely completely on watching them in the field) I don't think this is the biggest issue for learning how to play.

I think there are two bigger ones which are very much related:

1. The flux/overload/shield/armour system and the resultant necessity (usually) for cat and mouse combat. I am not aware of any previous game that uses a system like this and any new player is most likely to be completely stumped as to why they are getting their arses handed to them to begin with ("begin with" equating to three or four times more play time than the average AAA action title takes to complete). It's not just complicated, it's totally unfamiliar.

2. The plethora of confusing weapon types and variants. Many games have a rock, paper, scissors model which is usually quite simple and familiar, but this one is more like (rock, paper, whatever)^2 except that a rock looks like a sheet of paper, the paper is scrunched up to look like a rock and whatever is just, well, whatever. The new player has no hope whatever of understanding what all these weapons do and how they should be used, certainly not until they've played for three or four times as long as the average AAA title etc. But the real kicker is the way these weapon specs interact with the flux/overload/shield/armour system. That's were the ^2 comes from.

Not that I'm in any way complaining, it's what makes this game great, sets it apart, but IMHO if something quite imaginative is not done to ease understanding of all this stuff when it gets released on Steam it is not difficult to imagine the cacophonous whining and avalanches of -ve reviews that will ensue.

Dark Souls may have been difficult, but the principle behind it, monsters having specific attack patterns you had to avoid and specific weaknesses you had to to exploit is hardly new or unique. You could argue that that's all that's really going on here but the difference is in Dark Souls you are just trying to whack your foe with a sword, not rocket science, whereas here it's much more complicated or certainly seems to be to the new player.

Roughly 2 hours. I started with version 8 and thats about how much time it took me to figure out everything there was to know about vanilla. Everything else what testing strategies, loadout and improving my piloting skills (I really suck). Starsector is a peculiar game for sure, but at its core it is simple. That is actually one of its strength. Let people whine and scream, games need to pinpoint who they are aiming for and stick to it. Sometime you wanna play the latest assasin's creed, sometime you wanna play starsector.

Comparing to some hypothetical "AAA title" is absurd. I'm pretty sure theres a plethora of game far more complex and long to learn than starsector. From space sims to 4X games going throught subtle card game and expensive RPG.

As for Dark Soul I curse the horde of people that somehow got into their head that "difficulty" based on learning pattern is the best a game can offer.

If I had to not one complain I have about starsector dificulty its that the appex of difficulty come about midgame as you transition from exploring to fighting.
Logged

DrPhat

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2020, 01:36:53 PM »

The hardest part of getting a strong foothold in Starsector is the combat. If you are particularly skilled or knowledgeable about the ships it is possible to start the game in Iron mode on normal difficulty and get an endgame fleet by only doing bounty missions.

The easy way of getting credits is to avoid combat, many people suggest the tried and true method of getting some early game Shepherds and doing analasys missions of planets and derelicts.

You can also do bar missions running commodities between the core worlds. Doing this you can place com sniffers in systems to look for procurements of illegal commodities which often sell for more. If you have these commodities in your hold before you accept the procurements you can deliver them in time. Recreational drugs and harvested organs sell very well to pirate procurements. A little stealth may be required here.

You can also have a hybrid fleet where you hunt merchant caravan fleets to prevent them from completing their trades. This leads to a shortage at the destination planet where you can swoop in and get much higher profits for the needed commodities.

There are lots of very profitable ways of getting credits in this game. Think outside of the box and Starsector suddenly becomes very fun and very easy.
Logged

Mordodrukow

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2020, 08:42:31 PM »

As for me, the hardest part of the gameplay was to learn to hold Shift in a combat. Helps a lot. Not true for some ships though... Odyssey, for example.

There is an in-game setting to invert the shift key so turn-to-cursor is the default.
Yes, but i already learned to play this way...

Also... i d like an option, when chosen group autofires anyway, more than that. Heard about some mod, which can do this.
Logged
Spoiler
[close]

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1231
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2020, 05:41:13 AM »

I can't really say that I found the difficulties that Gregorovitch experienced. The flux system is not really that much unfamiliar to the shield/health regeneration in many FPS games nowadays. It is more complex, but not totally unfamiliar. Likewise gaining flux from firing weapons is not that much different from losing stamina in many fighting games. I found the flux system familiar. The idea of soft and hard flux was the only real concept I had to spend some time in order to understand.

Likewise with weapons.  The wepons basically operate in a rock paper scissors fashion.  Starsector will straight up tell you for the most part how the weapons interact unlike say darksouls where every weapon has a different attack pattern, but you need to play it to find out what it is and weapons that look shorter ranged might actually be longer ranged due to the attack animation and hitting different parts of the weapon might deal different damage and upgrading weapons and weapon scaling, a core part of the game mechanic is just a mess of different values where people have mistaken complexity for depth.

It is true you can't tell how a ship can perform by looking at it in a shop, as weapon arcs aren't included, but there are missions to play through that should include most of the ships. Once brought you will have a general idea of how it performs through the sim anyways. The issue the OP has doesn't seem to be those issues anyways, from what I can tell.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12148
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2020, 06:10:09 AM »

The idea of soft and hard flux was the only real concept I had to spend some time in order to understand.
That was my biggest problem when I started Starsector years ago.

Also thought kinetics always dealt hard flux (i.e., why graviton beam not putting hard flux on shields?), and energy weapons put soft flux.  Once I noticed pulse laser put hard flux on shields, and beams hit for soft flux, I dumped the beams for pulse lasers and blasters and my kill speed went significantly faster.

It would help if the tiny hard flux bar was more distinctive.  It is too easy to miss if you do not know what you are looking for.
Logged

si1foo

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2020, 07:06:35 AM »


and yes i got a colony too early and using transponder on. So huge pirate fleets attack almost allways.
i got too many fleets (suply usage was 6-7 and fuel usage +30)

colonies are huge resource sinks early on, as for fuel and supply usage. That isn't that big of a number from my experience but, you should have some freighter and tanker's to carry the resources your fleet needs. Also lets you carry more of the spoils of war home as well

Quote
I was playing mixed and half universe, was that a mistake?

maybe but if your fighting pirate fleets  who are that big then you havn't been killing there bases at all i would guess
Logged

SafariJohn

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3019
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2020, 09:55:48 AM »

The idea of soft and hard flux was the only real concept I had to spend some time in order to understand.
That was my biggest problem when I started Starsector years ago.

It would help if the tiny hard flux bar was more distinctive.  It is too easy to miss if you do not know what you are looking for.

The tiny hull/flux/CR bars in the combat UI really are bad design. To be fair, they date back to the first versions of Starsector and I'm not sure what would be better.
Logged

Megas

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 12148
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 11:14:54 AM »

The tiny hull/flux/CR bars in the combat UI really are bad design. To be fair, they date back to the first versions of Starsector and I'm not sure what would be better.
How about hard flux line being a different color or shade so it does not perfectly blend with the whole flux bar.  The hard flux line is the same color as the flux bar.  It is practically invisible for anyone who does not know what to look for.

I have no problem with the flux bars, only the hard flux being nearly indistinguishable from soft flux at a glance.
Logged

BadGame

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Harder than darksoul games
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 12:02:34 PM »

Ok i start it allover now (no mods/no supply usage editing) This time i try to be more carefuly and doing some cargo missions and exploring until i got couple mil.money.
Last time i didint care ship  supplies/mo.  and that was a big mistage.

When i should start first colony?
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3