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Author Topic: Fleet cap discussion  (Read 752 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2020, 06:30:10 AM »

I don't have a problem with amount of capitals present. Just that it's impossible to efficiently counter with DP-appropriate amount of smaller ships (with Spark Drovers being somewhat of an exception).
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Megas

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2020, 06:43:59 AM »

If capital spam stays, then 1) PPT should be raised across the board and 2) battlemap size should be raised (to more than 500) so that we can deploy more than two to five capitals.  If fleets are meant to bring a bunch of capitals, I want to deploy them all, not fight a small trickle of ships like a Star Control SuperMelee (and retreat my ships due to not enough PPT) due to too small map size.

PPTs were calibrated during the 0.6.x days, when the biggest fleet was Hegemony System Defense Fleet, or the equivalent of a modern 200k named bounty.

It makes sense that the larger the fleet, the more capital ships it should contain. You could argue that it is pretty strange that large expedition fleets contain a large contingent of combat non-capitals. What value are the smaller ships providing other than being the first to be destroyed when facing up against your fleet and orbital station?
They should bring more Prometheus, and possibly Atlas too, if they go full capital spam.  I notice they may have one Prometheus, probably enough for a one-way trip for my colonies beyond the core.  I find it hard to bring all of the capitals they bring for a similar long-distance trip without bringing at least two Prometheus, taking Efficiency Overhaul, and maybe Navigation.  Pirates are understandable since they "raid", but others just break or disrupt stuff then leave.

The war fleets they send at you are bigger than their system patrols.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:51:22 AM by Megas »
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Plantissue

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2020, 06:45:55 AM »

That's more of a problem that is attributed to larger battlesize. Back when battlesize was 200 it was possible for a bunch of frigates to kill a capital in good time. It is not only carriers that recieves increased effectiveness with higher numbers, but large ship hulls as well, but to a lesser extent. Currently, a single Onslaught remains vulnerable to DP-equivalent frigates, but if there are 2 Onslaughts together, they are not. The question I would say is how to resolve that problem or if it is preferable to solve it. The game doesn't seem to be intended to be balanced to a particular battlesize, nor is it particularily preferable that it is, since most people seem to change battlesize to suit themselves once they know they can change it and what it does.

As it is 500 battlesize is most appropriate for the large end game fleets, whilst it barely affects "midgame" fleets. In actuality all complaints about endgame fleets can be "solved" by lugging around a mass of capital ships that never see combat so you simply equalise or outnumber the opponent fleet in deployment.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:49:33 AM by Plantissue »
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Megas

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2020, 06:59:03 AM »

In the old days, Logistics was a more harsh limiter than fleet size, except for frigates if player had max Leadership and Fleet Logistics.

Fighters were unskilled until 0.8a, although there were no officers until 0.7a.  Also, fleet cap was 25 instead of 30 during early 0.7a.

Quote
In actuality all complaints about endgame fleets can be "solved" by lugging around a mass of capital ships that never see combat so you simply equalise or outnumber the opponent fleet in deployment.
Except I can only deploy about five of them.  If I bring much more than that, I cannot use more until I lose ships, which I want to avoid.  Of course, I probably need a bunch of waystations all over the place and want seven-digit income to pay for all of the fuel and supplies my ships will gobble up (and still have leftover for other expenses), and Efficiency Overhaul on all of the ships so they eat less.
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Perq

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2020, 01:09:21 AM »

That's more of a problem that is attributed to larger battlesize. Back when battlesize was 200 it was possible for a bunch of frigates to kill a capital in good time. It is not only carriers that recieves increased effectiveness with higher numbers, but large ship hulls as well, but to a lesser extent. Currently, a single Onslaught remains vulnerable to DP-equivalent frigates, but if there are 2 Onslaughts together, they are not. The question I would say is how to resolve that problem or if it is preferable to solve it. The game doesn't seem to be intended to be balanced to a particular battlesize, nor is it particularily preferable that it is, since most people seem to change battlesize to suit themselves once they know they can change it and what it does.

As it is 500 battlesize is most appropriate for the large end game fleets, whilst it barely affects "midgame" fleets. In actuality all complaints about endgame fleets can be "solved" by lugging around a mass of capital ships that never see combat so you simply equalise or outnumber the opponent fleet in deployment.

This. I see quite often people saying that "frigates can flank Onslaughts easily, frigates are ok", but this sentiment seems to ignore the fact that in most scenarios fleets are composed of more than just a single Onslaught.
The fleet cap size doesn't help that when you have to chose between having frigates, or actual fleet.
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Morbo513

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2020, 03:01:09 AM »

I don't disagree - but frigates and some destroyers are invaluable for tying up the heavier ships' escorts, disabling some of their guns, getting hits on their engines or wherever their shield isn't facing, putting pressure on those shields, all while your own cruisers and caps are doing the heavy lifting against them - in addition to carving through any trash frigates the enemy has. It's not so much their effect on an individual target, but how they affect the disposition and cohesion of the enemy fleet, and their ability to exploit the openings created in that regard. PPT, 30-ship limit and the lesser survivability of lighter ships means you have a very limited window in which you can leverage this effect, where a bunch of cruisers in their place wouldn't have the problem of simply being outlasted.
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bobucles

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2020, 05:56:28 AM »

Quote
Except I can only deploy about five of [capitals].
Stop playing on 500 fleet limit? The biggest problem with capital spam is inflating your fleet scale settings. If players can pack 5 capitals into a fight, they will. On default mode, each side gets ~150 DP for battle. That's room for 3 good capitals, which can get zerged down by a much wider array of smaller ships.
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TaLaR

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2020, 06:09:02 AM »

Quote
Except I can only deploy about five of [capitals].
Stop playing on 500 fleet limit? The biggest problem with capital spam is inflating your fleet scale settings. If players can pack 5 capitals into a fight, they will. On default mode, each side gets ~150 DP for battle. That's room for 3 good capitals, which can get zerged down by a much wider array of smaller ships.

While smaller combat size makes fleet consisting of smaller ships more viable for single round, this fleet also needs to last for more rounds.  Which it can't CR-wise.
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bobucles

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2020, 06:46:11 AM »

While smaller combat size makes fleet consisting of smaller ships more viable for single round, this fleet also needs to last for more rounds.  Which it can't CR-wise.
Perhaps I'm missing something. Is there some situation in the game where you absolutely have to survive engagements against wave after wave of enemy reinforcements? If anything, your fleet should be overwhelmed! Crushing 3 ordos at once isn't normal, but on tripled combat sizes it is. Battle size absolutely increases the scale of what players can overcome, and skews expectations of what does and doesn't work.

The only kind of endgame battle the player needs to win is one player fleet vs. one fleet of enemy redacted or expedition force. Anything more than that is pure flexing, and potentially dabbing.
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Plantissue

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2020, 06:46:40 AM »

That's more of a problem that is attributed to larger battlesize. Back when battlesize was 200 it was possible for a bunch of frigates to kill a capital in good time. It is not only carriers that recieves increased effectiveness with higher numbers, but large ship hulls as well, but to a lesser extent. Currently, a single Onslaught remains vulnerable to DP-equivalent frigates, but if there are 2 Onslaughts together, they are not. The question I would say is how to resolve that problem or if it is preferable to solve it. The game doesn't seem to be intended to be balanced to a particular battlesize, nor is it particularily preferable that it is, since most people seem to change battlesize to suit themselves once they know they can change it and what it does.

As it is 500 battlesize is most appropriate for the large end game fleets, whilst it barely affects "midgame" fleets. In actuality all complaints about endgame fleets can be "solved" by lugging around a mass of capital ships that never see combat so you simply equalise or outnumber the opponent fleet in deployment.

This. I see quite often people saying that "frigates can flank Onslaughts easily, frigates are ok", but this sentiment seems to ignore the fact that in most scenarios fleets are composed of more than just a single Onslaught.
The fleet cap size doesn't help that when you have to chose between having frigates, or actual fleet.
Did you stop reading at halfway through the first line? I am comparing the effects of changing battlesize and how that affects the viability of frigates. Try reading the rest of the post as it is short and succinct and follows the continuation of your thoughts.
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TaLaR

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 07:50:37 AM »

While smaller combat size makes fleet consisting of smaller ships more viable for single round, this fleet also needs to last for more rounds.  Which it can't CR-wise.
Perhaps I'm missing something. Is there some situation in the game where you absolutely have to survive engagements against wave after wave of enemy reinforcements? If anything, your fleet should be overwhelmed! Crushing 3 ordos at once isn't normal, but on tripled combat sizes it is. Battle size absolutely increases the scale of what players can overcome, and skews expectations of what does and doesn't work.

The only kind of endgame battle the player needs to win is one player fleet vs. one fleet of enemy redacted or expedition force. Anything more than that is pure flexing, and potentially dabbing.

Typical invasion fleet consists of 10 capitals plus assorted lesser ships. That's already about 3 waves to fight off at battlesize 300. But invasion fleets don't have to come alone, seeing 2-3 in same expedition isn't rare either (well, as far as I remember. In Nexelerin numbers can get even higher).

You need something that can decisive crush wave after wave, not barely win one round. Which leads to 11 capital/cruiser fleet (since you have only 10 officers).
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Megas

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 07:58:54 AM »

Quote
Except I can only deploy about five of [capitals].
Stop playing on 500 fleet limit? The biggest problem with capital spam is inflating your fleet scale settings. If players can pack 5 capitals into a fight, they will. On default mode, each side gets ~150 DP for battle. That's room for 3 good capitals, which can get zerged down by a much wider array of smaller ships.
Small ships do not have the PPT to last long enough in endgame fights.  (Even capitals may not last as long if map size is small enough or fleet not optimized enough in typical endgame fights.)  Not to mention that the enemy will spam big ships.  I need a fleet that can smash endgame fleets since they control more fleets than me.  It is like TaLaR says.

Endgame expeditions in vanilla is three huge fleets with up to ten capitals and mostly cruisers for the rest.  There is a reason why I write that destroying their capital worlds and the rest of their planets is easier than defending my colonies, and why they treat an upstart with more ferocity than their enemies, whether pirates or major factions.
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IronBorn

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2020, 09:44:55 PM »

I would be interested to try playing where there are class restrictions for fleet composition. Current fleet limit is 30 ships, so limit the number of ships per class. Max 6 capitols, max 12 cruisers, no limits on destroyers and frigates. Logistics ships and ships with civilian hulls wouldn't count towards the max. Also might be interesting to allow junker fleets to exceed the limits, like 3+ d-mods are considered one class lower, so a 3+ d-mod capital would count as a cruiser. Game definitely needs to have PPT adjusted for smaller ships because of capital spam. Since players can adjust Battle Size, PPT and max limits should probably adjust with it. Larger Battle Size increases capital limits and PPT of frigates/destroyers. It should also buff stations, as the higher the Battle Size, the easier it is to kill stations.

Could this be a setting players could pick when generating a game? Some people want all capital spam while others want balanced fleets.
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TaLaR

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2020, 10:25:22 PM »

I would be interested to try playing where there are class restrictions for fleet composition.

Would be a one-sided nerf to player. Enemies do bring multiple fleets anyway. So your 6 caps vs their 18, etc.

Though I think 6 are enough for battlesize 500 anyway. You need 11 ships filling 300 DP, possibly leaving out some for reserves. 6 caps for at least 240 DP + 60 DP to spend on cruisers.
There are only 10 officers, that can't swapped between combat rounds. So you can't have more than 10 effective AI ships. Rest are player-piloted ships or some cheap fodder that you don't expect to do much, plus non-combat ships of course.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2020, 10:31:47 PM by TaLaR »
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Lucky33

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Re: Fleet cap discussion
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2020, 11:24:28 PM »

There are only two factions in the vanilla who can have 10 decent officers per fleet. Hegemony and Remnant. Downfall of the first one is that officers can be only steady, second one is limited by the fact that there can be only very limited number of Radiants per fleet so most of the officers will be on the cruisers and destroyers. And both cant choose the officer builds making them suboptimal.

I can do top tier (up to 500 FP) Hegemony bounty (no dedicated support ships) with my three Onslaughts (84 FP). So I have absolutely no idea what to do with ten Onslaughts. There is no enemy in the vanilla what requires so many ships to destroy.
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