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Author Topic: Ambush Bickering  (Read 16937 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #120 on: February 13, 2020, 08:08:23 PM »

What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

Yes. All of that. Cruisers are usually faster and more maneuverable than logistics ships and so can easily intercept a fleet in their rear. Battleships that are flying behind logistics ships are already between logistics ships and the ambusher and so can easily intercept fleets in their rear. If not because they're already there but because the logistics ships can maneuver to keep the battleships between them and the enemy force.

When fleets meet what happens is that the combat ships fly forward and the logistics ships stay behind. So if you wanted to ambush a fleet such that their logistics ships were at risk one of the forces would have to fly forward their combat ships into nothing while you attacked their logistics. As a result of this it lacks verisimilitude.

Cruiser or any other ships cant leave the bubble or maneuver freely inside it. While other fleet actually have the freedom of maneuver. If you would be able to detach ships from your fleet this whole topic wouldnt exist in the first place. It is all about finding ways around this fundamental in-game restriction.

If you are in search of verisimilitude when why wouldnt you just look into actual naval practice? 2nd and 3rd Pacific Squadrons of Imperial Russian Navy once attempted to break through Tsushima strait with its transport ships coming along. They did exactly as you have proposed. Put the battleships towards japanese ones and kept cruiser division outside the line of battle to intercept any attempts to get to the transports. It didnt go well. And I have already explained why it works that way.

See, you have to invent the third reality (not the game and not the real life) for your visions to be true.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #121 on: February 13, 2020, 08:17:51 PM »

I have provided the proof that it is not the case and the opposite is true.

Do you revoke your argument or not?
I do revoke. You have provided no proof of anything.

Quote
Is the important part of the aforementioned argument when in addition I have to mention that the said fact do not exist because player is unable to change the travelling formation to the specific order.

What? Can you rephrase because this is almost gibberish. I am having trouble following you.

There is no “order” or “traveling formation” to change it to. These things do not exist. Edit: as a result there is also nothing to exploit

I have provided the proof that one can simply go around a defending fleet with fast ships.

One cant intertwine logistics ships with combat ships. As you said it yourself: "there is no “order” or “traveling formation” to change it to". This is it. Do logistics ships and combat ships intertwine or not is not up to the player to decide. And this is the fact that can be exploited.
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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #122 on: February 13, 2020, 08:40:28 PM »

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #123 on: February 13, 2020, 08:49:29 PM »

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #124 on: February 13, 2020, 09:16:38 PM »

So looking at that image you shared Lucky33, you think that you can explain the ambush mechanic by simply catching a fleet on the opposite direction of which they are facing, yet you fail to see that the warships are alternating between the front and the back of the bubble, meaning that you can't catch the logistics without encountering the other warships (if they even existed in that fleet you have shown. Good job you didn't even give a good example).

Anyways that whole argument about trying to explain how the ambush even happens is pointless and I feel that you're using it to deviate from the real issue here :

This whole mechanic is superfluous at best, detrimental at worst. It turns frigates into an obligation otherwise the player gets punished hard for daring to not use any of them by destroying all of his cargo and fuel ships. None of the AI fleets except for traders or merchant convoys require these logistic vessels to function, yet they are vital for the player. Infact bounties don't even use cargo ships.
And besides there is no worthwhile rewards from ambushing a fleet except for convoys (but those aren't dedicated combat fleets) they don't carry valuable commodities, the only reward a player gets from destroying such fleets is the supplies, fuel and salvaged ships and most of these rewards come from the main force, not what little logistic vessels they have.
And finally it discourages the player from using frigates in any normal battle since he won't be able to afford losing them as it leaves him vulnerable to ambushes.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:22:32 PM by Cyber Von Cyberus »
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #125 on: February 13, 2020, 09:26:22 PM »

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

They can go around. In your image, you were facing off with a duo of cruisers in the rear line. You legit went around and hit a cruiser formation.
This is "flanking the fleet" to you. You have gone behind the fleet only to run into the rear guard. Your ambush strikes, hard and fast, only to break against the rock that is two cruisers.

You made no such flank, that picture is a brilliant example of covering your own logistics- You want to pull from the game? If I was commanding that fleet, I could click on your fleet and turn around, since any smart commander will have noticed your lurking sensor blip on their scopes, even if your flanking fleet was frigates.

Your argument that I cannot affect my own fleet layout is valid but irrelevant. While I cannot directly affect my own fleet posture, all one has to do is look at the fleet in the campaign screen and notice that they have, all of their own volition, formed a mutually defensive sphere. All of my tactics and maneuver explanation was simply to tell you how easily a fleet could enter the standard engagement instead of your "ambush".

In your First World War example, the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away.

Besides, if you wanted to use that as an example, i'd like to point out your fanciful thinking. You sir, are now skipping over the facts from real life battles not even in remotely the same circumstances. The Russians had no detection or targeting, something Starsector fleets would have had in abundance. Hell, the Japanese only got hits because the Russians were trying to use spotlights to find the small craft. In daylight circumstances, your example battle would have gone much differently. Ships of the line of the day were meant to close in and blast with fast-firing secondaries, also effective against small craft. With daylight facilitating proper communications and  maneuvering options, the Russians should have been able to give the Japanese a hell of a time. 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:40:45 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #126 on: February 13, 2020, 09:39:58 PM »

So looking at that image you shared Lucky33, you think that you can explain the ambush mechanic by simply catching a fleet on the opposite direction of which they are facing, yet you fail to see that the warships are alternating between the front and the back of the bubble, meaning that you can't catch the logistics without encountering the other warships (if they even existed in that fleet you have shown. Good job you didn't even give a good example).

Anyways that whole argument about trying to explain how the ambush even happens is pointless and I feel that you're using it to deviate from the real issue here :

This whole mechanic is superfluous at best, detrimental at worst. It turns frigates into an obligation otherwise the player gets punished hard for daring to not use any of them by destroying all of his cargo and fuel ships. None of the AI fleets except for traders or merchant convoys require these logistic vessels to function, yet they are vital for the player. Infact bounties don't even use cargo ships.
And besides there is no worthwhile rewards from ambushing a fleet except for convoys (but those aren't dedicated combat fleets) they don't carry valuable commodities, the only reward a player gets from destroying such fleets is the supplies, fuel and salvaged ships and most of these rewards come from the main force, not what little logistic vessels they have.
And finally it discourages the player from using frigates in any normal battle since he won't be able to afford losing them as it leaves him vulnerable to ambushes.

That image serves a single purpose. To prove that it is possible for the fast ships to go around a defending fleet.

This whole mechanics rises the risks for the players who ignore the threat of the small fleets. There is no direct punishment involved. Only the possibilities. You may or may not meet the ambush. You may or may not lose your logistics ships. You may or may not suffer from the resulting lack of fuel or supplies. For some unknown reason you stipulate these as a guaranteed outcomes. Why do you need that?


You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

They can go around. In your image, you were facing off with a duo of cruisers in the rear line. You legit went around and hit a cruiser formation.
This is "flanking the fleet" to you. You have gone behind the fleet only to run into the rear guard. Your ambush strikes, hard and fast, only to break against the rock that is two cruisers.

You made no such flank, that picture is a brilliant example of covering your own logistics- You want to pull from the game? If I was commanding that fleet, I could click on your fleet and turn around, since any smart commander will have noticed your lurking sensor blip on their scopes, even if your flanking fleet was frigates.

Your argument that I cannot affect my own fleet layout is valid but irrelevant. While I cannot directly affect my own fleet posture, all one has to do is look at the fleet in the campaign screen and notice that they have, all of their own volition, formed a mutually defensive sphere. All of my tactics and maneuver explanation was simply to tell you how easily a fleet could enter the standard engagement instead of your "ambush". 

Good. I didnt bother to face anything but the back of the fleet. Because you stated that it is not possible. If needed I can pick any other direction and force the enemy fleet to randomly shuffle its ships. This all together shows clearly that the attacker is in control of the situation while defender is not. And this is why the attacker can have the ambush option.
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #127 on: February 13, 2020, 09:43:30 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #128 on: February 13, 2020, 09:47:05 PM »

Good. I didnt bother to face anything but the back of the fleet. Because you stated that it is not possible. If needed I can pick any other direction and force the enemy fleet to randomly shuffle its ships. This all together shows clearly that the attacker is in control of the situation while defender is not. And this is why the attacker can have the ambush option.

I do have control of that situation. I would have you know, that having forced you to back off and change direction, I could start driving on my merry way to the jump point and laugh as your fleet desperately tries to change attack vector whist keeping up. At best, a frigate fleet has 2-4 levels of burn on me. Most of the time they have nothing due to me judiciously using Augmented Burn Drives.

Besides which, you were running into those cruisers as part of a random formation. Coming from any other direction would most likely run into something worse of similar, and since all the ships are bouncing in the formation you can't pick and choose

Any fleet that runs into me, I chose to run into. Disrupted? Screw running, about face. While it's coming off cooldown I can click on your fleet and turn around. If you wish, I will record a clip of that.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:50:42 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #129 on: February 13, 2020, 09:57:04 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.

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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #130 on: February 13, 2020, 10:05:37 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:07:53 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #131 on: February 13, 2020, 10:25:00 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #132 on: February 13, 2020, 10:46:34 PM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.

Ah. WW1 era tech plateau was what i was mentioning. Doesn't really change anything about fleet doctrine, tactics, detection radii, etc. Really just smaller ships with smaller guns. My bad, really meant to say technology level.
Give me your documents.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/battle-tsushima-when-japan-russias-most-fearsome-battleships-20896
https://www.mhistory.net/battle-of-tsushima-the-birth-of-japans-naval-power/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Tsushima
+general lectures and ***.

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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #133 on: February 13, 2020, 11:19:57 PM »

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

No it doesn't. It shows you attacking cruisers and battleships... If you "go around to not hit cruisers and battleships" but hit cruisers and battleships it stands to reason that you did not.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #134 on: February 14, 2020, 03:11:33 AM »

I edited my earlier comment to show why your example from the Battle of Tsushima was irrelevant.

What if I click on the enemy ships? suddenly my battlegroup is bearing down on the enemy. E-Burn? I still stay facing towards them. They cannot get behind me. While in interstellar space, all ships in starsector turn at the same speed.

You can't get behind a player. All they need is to click on you, and viola, they have their battleline on you.

You clearly dont even know what Battle of Tsushima is.

That fleet in the picture did have all the options without any real downsides. Like me luring it into the nebula or into the Remnant patrol. Or both. And I dont need to get behind a player since there is no multiplayer in the game.
And therin we see the issue with your ambush mechanic. There arent any real downsides. Besides which, the logic is, any competent commander, (ie an ai that know whats it's doing) will turn and fight rather than let you into whatever line you've hit.
You seem to want this feature so you can abuse the AI with it.

The battle of Tsushima, Admiral Togo v. Rozhestvensky?
27 May 1905?
the "dying echo of an old era"?

There are real downsides. Because you are on the clock. It is not that the rest of the fleet is cut off for the whole battle. Its only delayed according to ship's speed.

Yes. 1905. Not the "First World War example" when both sides (Russia and Japan) were allied and it was 1914-1918. And none of the:

"the cruisers didn't have the detection range available our fleets. At the same time, what they fought would be described as a standard pursuit battle in starsector. None of that Cruisers running to save the logistics ***. The fleet was arrayed properly and struck in a nighttime assault impossible in space, by 58 vessels, 21 of them destroyers. They faced off against the Russian battleships escorted by cruisers. There was no scramble to get to the logistics ships. There was no fast gun battle- the attackers pretty much shoved torpedoes at the Russians until they ran away."

Has anything to do with the battle in question. Actually, I have no idea that you are describing. I mean I've read all the post-battle reports from both sides but there is nothing of this in them.

Ah. WW1 era tech plateau was what i was mentioning. Doesn't really change anything about fleet doctrine, tactics, detection radii, etc. Really just smaller ships with smaller guns. My bad, really meant to say technology level.
Give me your documents.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/battle-tsushima-when-japan-russias-most-fearsome-battleships-20896
https://www.mhistory.net/battle-of-tsushima-the-birth-of-japans-naval-power/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
https://www.britannica.com/event/Battle-of-Tsushima
+general lectures and ***.

WWI era is the change from dreadnought line-of-battle fleet to the taskforce one of the WWII. Both have nothing to do with the Russo-Japanese War realities defined by the ironclads struggling to implement basics of the long range gunfire. So neither WW1 era is a tech plateau, nor it is the same thing as previous era in question. Needles to say that all of it has nothing to do with the supposed but completely innacurate description of the Tsushima Battle.

Here you go:

https://dlib.rsl.ru/viewer/01005079693#?page=1

https://www.jacar.archives.go.jp/aj/meta/imageen_C05110085200?IS_KEY_S1=C05110085200&IS_KIND=detail&IS_STYLE=eng&IS_TAG_S1=InfoSDU&

You have not? I am not sure what you think that image you linked shows but it does not show a fleet of frigates with the enemy logistics between it and the enemy battleships.

Do you see how the lack of a “fleet order” means that logistics ships cant be “last”?

That image shows that fast ships can simply go around a defending fleet. Before that it was stated that they can not.

Not the "last" but "vulnerable to attack from outside".

No it doesn't. It shows you attacking cruisers and battleships... If you "go around to not hit cruisers and battleships" but hit cruisers and battleships it stands to reason that you did not.

The question was about fast ships going around a defending fleet. Do you see the fleet of the fast ships in the back of defending fleet or did you not?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 03:32:01 AM by Lucky33 »
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