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Author Topic: Ambush Bickering  (Read 16951 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #105 on: February 13, 2020, 11:38:11 AM »


Pirates are raiding capital worlds of the major factions. You can do that too in about... I dont know... an hour of gameplay.

Sorry, you cant have 120 ships in vanilla and the mooded game is not the subject of discussion here.

Ambush logic can not be applied to fleets with close maneuverability. This is why they can choose their positioning and formation before battle.

Point through exaggeration. You're evading the main point.

There is no exaggeration. And no point to evade.
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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #106 on: February 13, 2020, 12:19:34 PM »

I agree with Side. I do not understand how your construction works with any sort of verisimilitude.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2020, 12:23:07 PM »

What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2020, 12:40:18 PM »

One actually can go behind a larger fleet. Its not a theory, its a fact. You can run the game and check it for yourself.



Geometry has nothing to do with that. Problem of the larger fleet is called inertia. Coupled with lack of power it creates a situation when fleet is unable to turn at a rate required to cope with the smaller fleet maneuver while keeping itself as a single formation. It creates an opportunity for the smaller fleet to pick any place and vector for the attack.

While on travel drives the whole combat map is not enough to notice the change of course for any degree. For such a small scale ship is treated as incapable to maneuver. This is why they have to turn the travel drive off to enter combat.

Early warning is not even a factor here. Detected fleet can choose to change its course at any time. Specifically at the closest range when large fleet is fully commited to whatever defensive maneuver it chose previuosly. This is why, any attempt of the larger fleet to rotate in any direction will make things even worse since it will have to fight its own inertia to rotate in the opposite direction. By turning it just presents a better opportunity for the attacker. The larger the difference in sizes the worse things are for the larger fleet. There is no solution here apart from the defensive sphere formation.

Going behind a fleet is NOT the same as hitting the logistics ships. There is nothing stopping a fleet from putting ships behind the logistics vessels.

I spent most of that essay explaining exactly why going to the back of a fleet is not the same as ambushing them.

You don't seem to have an understanding of orbital mechanics. Newton's laws dictate that if a fleet of frigates decides to go speeding in, every second spent accelerating in the direction of the target means another second the attacker has to burn to change direction.

The defending fleet's velocity is relative to the attackers, There is no momentum change to face a new attack direction, simply have the vessels you want in the back accelerate (or stop accelerating) in the direction they want to go. Suddenly, they're in the back. I could make a video to show you exactly how that works.

Compare the speed of a frigate to the speed of a destroyer. In sustained burn, exactly the same. That already negates your little dodge idea, not that it would work.

There is no "sidestep" in space. Once the frigates have chosen a course and set themselves to it, they cannot just zip around an intercepting force. They must commit or build so much sideways velocity dodging around that they will have to set up another attack run. Even if they have the acceleration to do so, the intercepting fleet will be able to see the maneuver as it occurs, and dodge backwards, closer to the fleet and thus saving time as they don't need to go as far to resume the block. In this case, your vaunted inertia works against your frigates.

Now, why would a huge battlefleet even intercept? They have the ships to just keep going where their going and take the "ambushers" on the rearguard. Those exist. They put ships behind the aircraft carriers as well. Since that rearguard is most likely that captial ship's cruiser and destroyer escort, the ambushers would get smashed, because they have to engage in a stern chase, slowly closing ground, while the rearguard could just stop accelerating and metaphorically "hit the brakes" to end up in range. Flanking vessels could slow their acceleration a bit and fall into formation to spread out the guard and resume covering the rear.

Besides which, there is nothing stopping the defenders from making a wall in space. The frigates would have to overshoot or dodge around, then spend a ridiculous amount of time building up velocity to return to turn around and come to attack speed.

Newton is mean. He doesn't let your movie tactics work.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:01:59 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #109 on: February 13, 2020, 12:48:20 PM »

The logistics ships are while different in purpose, pretty much the same as our aircraft carrier in this photo. Big, important, lumbering target that is important.
<img src="https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Abraham-Lincoln-battlegroup.jpg" alt="Image result for carrier group"/>

Note how many ships are behind the damn thing, and note how the fields of fire are clear for an attack from any flank. If you complain about the logistics ships in the back, they aren't going to come under close attack and under any kind of missile assault they are close enough for CWIS to cover for them while they close up the formation. The same goes for our starsector ships, the fleets arent gonna leave them thousands of kilometers behind. An enemy coming from behind? slow the escorts down and the cargo will catch up, the fleet itself keeps all of it's inertia toward it's target, but becomes a much more difficult target. Need to move the ships back up again? Flank speed, or slow the rest of the fleet down.

Forgot to add this, but the summary is that inertia doesnt matter a damn unless your fleet has to go somewhere. Otherwise you are free to play with your formation- ambushers have to fight inertia- defenders can just rearrange by cutting acceleration for a moment.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:15:15 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #110 on: February 13, 2020, 12:55:14 PM »

What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

There. I understood what you were trying to say, I also understood the physics behind it. There are classes on this thing, and people take them.


There is no exaggeration. And no point to evade.

The point would be exactly the same if I said I had 30 ships in the formation. It's a metaphor for a bunch of the rage that will probably occur when you realize that the scrappy pirate crew you saw across the system still managed to sneak in between your death blob's escorts. It'll be even stupider if the game is modded.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 01:20:29 PM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #111 on: February 13, 2020, 03:12:18 PM »

What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

Yes. All of that. Cruisers are usually faster and more maneuverable than logistics ships and so can easily intercept a fleet in their rear. Battleships that are flying behind logistics ships are already between logistics ships and the ambusher and so can easily intercept fleets in their rear. If not because they're already there but because the logistics ships can maneuver to keep the battleships between them and the enemy force.

When fleets meet what happens is that the combat ships fly forward and the logistics ships stay behind. So if you wanted to ambush a fleet such that their logistics ships were at risk one of the forces would have to fly forward their combat ships into nothing while you attacked their logistics. As a result of this it lacks verisimilitude.
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #112 on: February 13, 2020, 03:33:20 PM »

I know I'm repeating myself but this whole "ambush" mechanic completely discourages the use of frigates. For each logistics ship you'll need some frigates to protect them. This effectively reduces frigates into a logistics vessel too since again.. if you lose them in a normal battle your transport ships become completely vulnerable to any "ambush" by whatever crappy fleet flying around.
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Nick XR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #113 on: February 13, 2020, 04:59:14 PM »

I know I'm repeating myself but this whole "ambush" mechanic completely discourages the use of frigates. For each logistics ship you'll need some frigates to protect them. This effectively reduces frigates into a logistics vessel too since again.. if you lose them in a normal battle your transport ships become completely vulnerable to any "ambush" by whatever crappy fleet flying around.

Serious question, do you use frigates outside of the early game?  I find they get BBQ'ed often enough once I start taking on cruisers that I only keep them for pursuit scenarios.  I like the idea that frigates might have some use to me other than used by my second in command to chase retreating tankers.

Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #114 on: February 13, 2020, 05:41:34 PM »

I do yes. Both for chasing retreating fleets and to support the main fleets. Though i tend to go away from the lower value frigates and hold to things like minotors, omens, and tempests for non-chase work.
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #115 on: February 13, 2020, 06:28:45 PM »

I do yes. Both for chasing retreating fleets and to support the main fleets. Though i tend to go away from the lower value frigates and hold to things like minotors, omens, and tempests for non-chase work.

Yup- Frigates are great for interdiction, shove some salamanders on and or use them as cheap missile boats. The good frigates I use as fast attack and suppression.

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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #116 on: February 13, 2020, 07:12:26 PM »

Spoiler
One actually can go behind a larger fleet. Its not a theory, its a fact. You can run the game and check it for yourself.



Geometry has nothing to do with that. Problem of the larger fleet is called inertia. Coupled with lack of power it creates a situation when fleet is unable to turn at a rate required to cope with the smaller fleet maneuver while keeping itself as a single formation. It creates an opportunity for the smaller fleet to pick any place and vector for the attack.

While on travel drives the whole combat map is not enough to notice the change of course for any degree. For such a small scale ship is treated as incapable to maneuver. This is why they have to turn the travel drive off to enter combat.

Early warning is not even a factor here. Detected fleet can choose to change its course at any time. Specifically at the closest range when large fleet is fully commited to whatever defensive maneuver it chose previuosly. This is why, any attempt of the larger fleet to rotate in any direction will make things even worse since it will have to fight its own inertia to rotate in the opposite direction. By turning it just presents a better opportunity for the attacker. The larger the difference in sizes the worse things are for the larger fleet. There is no solution here apart from the defensive sphere formation.

Going behind a fleet is NOT the same as hitting the logistics ships. There is nothing stopping a fleet from putting ships behind the logistics vessels.

I spent most of that essay explaining exactly why going to the back of a fleet is not the same as ambushing them.

You don't seem to have an understanding of orbital mechanics. Newton's laws dictate that if a fleet of frigates decides to go speeding in, every second spent accelerating in the direction of the target means another second the attacker has to burn to change direction.

The defending fleet's velocity is relative to the attackers, There is no momentum change to face a new attack direction, simply have the vessels you want in the back accelerate (or stop accelerating) in the direction they want to go. Suddenly, they're in the back. I could make a video to show you exactly how that works.

Compare the speed of a frigate to the speed of a destroyer. In sustained burn, exactly the same. That already negates your little dodge idea, not that it would work.

There is no "sidestep" in space. Once the frigates have chosen a course and set themselves to it, they cannot just zip around an intercepting force. They must commit or build so much sideways velocity dodging around that they will have to set up another attack run. Even if they have the acceleration to do so, the intercepting fleet will be able to see the maneuver as it occurs, and dodge backwards, closer to the fleet and thus saving time as they don't need to go as far to resume the block. In this case, your vaunted inertia works against your frigates.

Now, why would a huge battlefleet even intercept? They have the ships to just keep going where their going and take the "ambushers" on the rearguard. Those exist. They put ships behind the aircraft carriers as well. Since that rearguard is most likely that captial ship's cruiser and destroyer escort, the ambushers would get smashed, because they have to engage in a stern chase, slowly closing ground, while the rearguard could just stop accelerating and metaphorically "hit the brakes" to end up in range. Flanking vessels could slow their acceleration a bit and fall into formation to spread out the guard and resume covering the rear.

Besides which, there is nothing stopping the defenders from making a wall in space. The frigates would have to overshoot or dodge around, then spend a ridiculous amount of time building up velocity to return to turn around and come to attack speed.

Newton is mean. He doesn't let your movie tactics work.
[close]

Earlier you stated that and I quote:

One cannot simply go around a defending fleet with fast ships due to the geometry (the defender only has to travel a short distance to intercept the attacker, while the attacker has to pick a direction and close)

I have provided the proof that it is not the case and the opposite is true.

Do you revoke your argument or not?

If you insist that:

and the simple fact that one can intertwine logistics ships with combat ships- think "vulnerable" aircraft carriers sitting in a single formation with their escorts- a patrol boat cannot simply go around the destroyers.

Is the important part of the aforementioned argument when in addition I have to mention that the said fact do not exist because player is unable to change the travelling formation to the specific order.

Unless you are willing to consider how this affects you line of argumentation I'm unwilling to go along it any deeper.
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #117 on: February 13, 2020, 07:16:20 PM »

I know I'm repeating myself but this whole "ambush" mechanic completely discourages the use of frigates. For each logistics ship you'll need some frigates to protect them. This effectively reduces frigates into a logistics vessel too since again.. if you lose them in a normal battle your transport ships become completely vulnerable to any "ambush" by whatever crappy fleet flying around.

Serious question, do you use frigates outside of the early game?  I find they get BBQ'ed often enough once I start taking on cruisers that I only keep them for pursuit scenarios.  I like the idea that frigates might have some use to me other than used by my second in command to chase retreating tankers.
Yes I do (although not in my current save since I'm still recovering from a chaotic pirate start and I'm using my salvaged capitals as a crutch until I get my colonies running and new fleet built) Monitors are an excellent distraction I which I send on the flanks and set on Search and Destroy, I also use them as a PD boat for some larger ships, escorts for carriers, escort for quick destroyers on the flanks if they have a phase skimmer and I also like to personally fly frigates as they make me feel much more nimble than a sluggish capital or cruiser.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #118 on: February 13, 2020, 07:30:49 PM »

What part of this:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg281581#msg281581

You cant understand?

All of that? When its a simple denial. And have nothing to do with understanding.

There. I understood what you were trying to say, I also understood the physics behind it. There are classes on this thing, and people take them.


There is no exaggeration. And no point to evade.

The point would be exactly the same if I said I had 30 ships in the formation. It's a metaphor for a bunch of the rage that will probably occur when you realize that the scrappy pirate crew you saw across the system still managed to sneak in between your death blob's escorts. It'll be even stupider if the game is modded.

120 destroyers is a false assumption. You are telling me that you need impossible number of ships to achieve something. Making it impossible in general.

Rage will be result of the wrong decision to escort the transports without frigates. Thats all. Typical destroyers do not have infinite weapons range or fast enough to catch the frigates. Do you want to make an accent on the borderline cases (the most advanced hi-tech destroyer against worst d-moded frigate)?
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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #119 on: February 13, 2020, 07:38:07 PM »

I have provided the proof that it is not the case and the opposite is true.

Do you revoke your argument or not?
I do revoke. You have provided no proof of anything.

Quote
Is the important part of the aforementioned argument when in addition I have to mention that the said fact do not exist because player is unable to change the travelling formation to the specific order.

What? Can you rephrase because this is almost gibberish. I am having trouble following you.

There is no “order” or “traveling formation” to change it to. These things do not exist. Edit: as a result there is also nothing to exploit
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 07:39:44 PM by Goumindong »
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