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Author Topic: Ambush Bickering  (Read 2985 times)

Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #90 on: February 12, 2020, 05:40:02 AM »

Player will gain loot.

C.O.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #91 on: February 12, 2020, 06:00:10 AM »

Player can gain loot by simply defeating enemy fleet in a straight fight. What beside that?
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2020, 06:15:29 AM »

Player can gain loot by simply defeating enemy fleet in a straight fight. What beside that?

No, player cant. For defeating a whole fleet you need enough power to do so. While defeating only civilian ships require noticeably less power. Looting the cofres of a 350K bounty with only five frigates? Normally you cant. But with the ambush you can.
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2020, 06:23:11 AM »

That seems horribly exploitable, just find whatever trading megafleet, ambush all of their transport with your dinky little frigates and get all the loot despite how well escorted they are.
And if the AI is capable of doing it to the player then that just disincentives them to use frigates during regular battles since losing them leaves their precious transports vulnerable if said frigates are lost.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #94 on: February 12, 2020, 06:49:25 AM »

No, not despite, since you still have to deal with the escorts. And another no - any dinky frigate will not cut it. One thing is a squadron of Tempests led by a player controlled Afflictor and another thing is a bunch of Kites.
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #95 on: February 12, 2020, 12:37:44 PM »

Well it is actually very exploitable since frigates are usually a fraction of the forces AI fleets have, if you were to face them alone with logistic vessels then you could simply overwhelm them with a bunch of cheap, disposable Hounds with a reckless doctrine which would be infinitely cheaper than buying, arming and deploying enough cruisers and destroyers to deal with the main force.
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Nick XR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #96 on: February 12, 2020, 03:39:51 PM »

I like @xenoargh's ideas.  A skill use feels more "purposeful", and a player with good detection might be able to prevent abushes. 

@Cyber Von Cyberus when dealing with invasions/bounties/wanting all loot, the ability to blow up a fleet in symmetrical combat is still required. 

I feel like if "ambush" is done well, it enables a little more variety of piracy early game, offers interesting late game threats to the player and maybe another way to deal with invasions.

Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #97 on: February 12, 2020, 03:42:21 PM »

Well it is actually very exploitable since frigates are usually a fraction of the forces AI fleets have, if you were to face them alone with logistic vessels then you could simply overwhelm them with a bunch of cheap, disposable Hounds with a reckless doctrine which would be infinitely cheaper than buying, arming and deploying enough cruisers and destroyers to deal with the main force.

Thats the point. And this is how pirates and such are supposed to make a living without getting themselves the famous zombie battlefleets. And, more importantly, it makes room for the player's suspension of disbelieve. Because you dont have to ask yourself: "Why the heck am I farming merchants with my armada when I can glass the entire Sector several times over and nobody can do absolutely nothing about it?"
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bobucles

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2020, 08:31:25 AM »

All rationale of the space ambush was already stated in this topic:
There's always room to debate rationale until the internet breaks. It's still lacking on the explicit rules that define gameplay.
Quote
I want ambush
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Okay how
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Just do lol
Doesn't help anyone.

If smaller pieces of a fleet can be attacked, they are no longer travelling as a fleet. The fleet bubble logic breaks down and you'd better justify it.

If map maneuvers enable an ambush, it is VERY difficult to define exactly what vectored motions are supposed to grant your fleet an initial advantage. Can players perform these maneuvers? Can the enemy? Those are not easy things to design.

If special activated abilities enable an ambush, it's VERY important to state what those rules are.  "Just ambush" isn't enough, there needs to be situations where the ability is or isn't valid, and considerations of attack vs. defense. Also it's important to figure out how the AI can perform such abilities.

There are several key mechanics of the ambush that need to be defined. How does it happen on the map? How does the battle start? How does the battle drag on? How does the battle end? Don't forget that no one's going to read the lore. Who has time for that? The players interact with the mechanics, and those determine if the play style is FUN.

So far there's a ton of discussion on the theory if small ships can kill big ships and that's not the point. That's so far from the point that it's pointless. In a traditional big scale battle, the main value of a fleet lies in its staying power. Slow beefy ships tend to have a lot of combat power, and they get additional benefits in terms of PPT and deployable DP. In an ambush battle, perhaps you're trying to flip those values on its head? Staying power and raw combat efficiency are no longer emphasized, and instead speed is the more defining attribute that determines victory. Can you define a battlefield space where speed is king? Speed certainly matters for pursuit battles, but that's probably not the ambush anyone is thinking of.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2020, 09:06:16 AM »

Your position is nowhere near being constructive. I did provide rationale and no, it is nothing that you have quoted. In view of forum policy which prohibits me from repaying your ad hominem in kind I see no room to debate unless you fix the situation by yourself.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:08:23 AM by Lucky33 »
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2020, 10:22:53 AM »

Yeah, the entire logic breaks down as soon as you look at your own fleet in the campaign.

It's travelling as a single large blob. The ships move and maneuver at the same rate as the slowest ship so as to stay in a mutually defensive formation.

Let's justify the logic behind this and what it means.

One cannot simply go around a defending fleet with fast ships due to the geometry (the defender only has to travel a short distance to intercept the attacker, while the attacker has to pick a direction and close) and the simple fact that one can intertwine logistics ships with combat ships- think "vulnerable" aircraft carriers sitting in a single formation with their escorts- a patrol boat cannot simply go around the destroyers. Your zombie Paragons could easily slot into the same line as a bunch of Atlases- they move at around the same speed. Suddenly the clever ambush would run into a convoy line that has 2 Paragons per logistics ship- seems to be the average ration of warships to logistics ships. Think WWII convoys, but reversed.

Even if the ships were forced to be spaced, there is no reason for the ships to be arrayed in a single file line. All indications show that the ships are placed in an exceedingly messy circle formation, and logic would dictate the logistics ships and slow capital ships be placed in the center.

Besides which, what would the spacing even be in Starsector? The largest ships seem to be running with 1/6 the size of a modern aircraft carrier's crew complement. We'll assume extensive computer support, especially in the high-tech ships- I'd say at the very maximum 2 kilometers long. Probably more like a kilometer however, these ships are three-dimensional and would certainly mass significantly more than our aircraft carrier example. Perhaps 2-5 kilometers of spacing while burning, and that gives them a significant safety margin. Cap ships can cover their own length in seconds- these ships would already be in the battlespace, and in the way of any ambitious pirates.

When ships enter pursuit mode, the ships have more like 200-300 meters of spacing, certainly a close enough formation to cover each other. Since pursuit actions mean that the running fleet has been caught- these battles normally involve the combat ships turning around and trying to punch the attackers hard enough in the nose to let the logistics ships retreat. The formation that they enter the battlespace in is the formation they were running in- no time to slow down and close the formation up, meaning that this spacing is more likely.

The idea of logistics ships sitting undefended because the fleet was in a line formation in space is laughable.

Fleets are most often detected a good portion of a day out, and it can easily be told if the fleets are coming at you or not. There are hours for the defending fleet to close up or intercept. These fleets are also detected in the stellar scale- When spotted, even single ships will be most likely a good portion of a light-minute away, allowing ships spaced only kilometers away to close up.

A frigate under sustained burn runs at the same speed as a destroyer (with abilities), 2 above a cruiser, 4 above a capital. It's faster. It also has to close a distance multiple factors larger. It won't get there.

Your best bet of pulling off an actual ambush is to wait for the fleet to get busy engaging someone else, then stabbing the logistics. If said second fleet is unavailable, the best conceivable way would be dashing out from some form of concealment, most likely just plain trickery, and defeating part of the enemy escort in detail, subsequently ramming as many missiles and fast frigates down the gap as you can. This could be pulled off by large numbers of missile frigates- the frigate's purpose is to be a strike weapon. The most logical role for a light and fast ship in a large fleet action is to screen for larger vessels with staying power and take opportunistic kills with missile weapons- interdiction and harassment. This can be seen in modern doctrine- we favor strike ships with powerful weapons, and when we build larger ships, (air carriers) they tend to be an extension of that doctrine, simply projecting more of that strike capability further.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 10:41:15 AM by Sidestrafe2462 »
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2020, 10:38:22 AM »

Thats the point. And this is how pirates and such are supposed to make a living without getting themselves the famous zombie battlefleets. And, more importantly, it makes room for the player's suspension of disbelieve. Because you dont have to ask yourself: "Why the heck am I farming merchants with my armada when I can glass the entire Sector several times over and nobody can do absolutely nothing about it?"

Ambushing has nothing to do with glassing the sector. Pirates run around with large fleets of mercs and slap small trade fleets.

Why is everyone ambushing me even though my defensive screen is 120 destroyers arrayed in a large circular wall around my ships, with cruiser blobs spaced in the middle? Why are my transports running so far behind my main fleet? Why does my entire main fleet get to sit in their own little death blob while the transports fight the pirates? By that logic, each ship in a battle should arrive every few minutes because the warships have to stick to a ridiculous spacing scheme. Actually, if the logistics ships can sit in a blob together, why cant the warships? Is it a caste system? Why does my fleet even exist if they cant fight any pirates? Why am I fighting off pirate ambushes even though I can glass the whole sector?
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #102 on: February 13, 2020, 11:16:53 AM »

One actually can go behind a larger fleet. Its not a theory, its a fact. You can run the game and check it for yourself.



Geometry has nothing to do with that. Problem of the larger fleet is called inertia. Coupled with lack of power it creates a situation when fleet is unable to turn at a rate required to cope with the smaller fleet maneuver while keeping itself as a single formation. It creates an opportunity for the smaller fleet to pick any place and vector for the attack.

While on travel drives the whole combat map is not enough to notice the change of course for any degree. For such a small scale ship is treated as incapable to maneuver. This is why they have to turn the travel drive off to enter combat.

Early warning is not even a factor here. Detected fleet can choose to change its course at any time. Specifically at the closest range when large fleet is fully commited to whatever defensive maneuver it chose previuosly. This is why, any attempt of the larger fleet to rotate in any direction will make things even worse since it will have to fight its own inertia to rotate in the opposite direction. By turning it just presents a better opportunity for the attacker. The larger the difference in sizes the worse things are for the larger fleet. There is no solution here apart from the defensive sphere formation.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:41:19 AM by Lucky33 »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #103 on: February 13, 2020, 11:23:25 AM »

Thats the point. And this is how pirates and such are supposed to make a living without getting themselves the famous zombie battlefleets. And, more importantly, it makes room for the player's suspension of disbelieve. Because you dont have to ask yourself: "Why the heck am I farming merchants with my armada when I can glass the entire Sector several times over and nobody can do absolutely nothing about it?"

Ambushing has nothing to do with glassing the sector. Pirates run around with large fleets of mercs and slap small trade fleets.

Why is everyone ambushing me even though my defensive screen is 120 destroyers arrayed in a large circular wall around my ships, with cruiser blobs spaced in the middle? Why are my transports running so far behind my main fleet? Why does my entire main fleet get to sit in their own little death blob while the transports fight the pirates? By that logic, each ship in a battle should arrive every few minutes because the warships have to stick to a ridiculous spacing scheme. Actually, if the logistics ships can sit in a blob together, why cant the warships? Is it a caste system? Why does my fleet even exist if they cant fight any pirates? Why am I fighting off pirate ambushes even though I can glass the whole sector?

Pirates are raiding capital worlds of the major factions. You can do that too in about... I dont know... an hour of gameplay.

Sorry, you cant have 120 ships in vanilla and the mooded game is not the subject of discussion here.

Ambush logic can not be applied to fleets with close maneuverability. This is why they can choose their positioning and formation before battle.
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Sidestrafe2462

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #104 on: February 13, 2020, 11:29:24 AM »


Pirates are raiding capital worlds of the major factions. You can do that too in about... I dont know... an hour of gameplay.

Sorry, you cant have 120 ships in vanilla and the mooded game is not the subject of discussion here.

Ambush logic can not be applied to fleets with close maneuverability. This is why they can choose their positioning and formation before battle.

Point through exaggeration. You're evading the main point.
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