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Author Topic: Ambush Bickering  (Read 2957 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2020, 09:25:47 PM »

What purpose would ambush mechanic serve other than frustrating the player with constant ambushes? AI logistics ships are just for show, destroying them gains you nothing (if anything, you just make enemy fleet faster by removing slowest ships). But doing so costs PPT that could be better spent on fighting actual combat ships.

Even if AI actually had to care about supplies, trying to exploit this would be frustrating:
- ambush and kill off logistics
- retreat and wait till enemy runs out of supplies and CR
- finally attack their fleet again after long wait
...Yeah, no.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 09:27:41 PM by TaLaR »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2020, 11:58:30 PM »

It will fix the situation when most frigates are seemed as dont fit even to serve as a practice targets.

Constant ambushes could become a thing only if a player would completely ignore a threat from the fast ships.

It was also suggested that destruction of AI logistics will create debris fields for the player to loot.
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TaLaR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #77 on: February 11, 2020, 12:19:12 AM »

...Or I could just get all loot by killing whole fleet in head-on battle, which is faster thing to do.

Frigate viability can be much better fixed by allowing multiple ships per officers (4 sizes worth) and lifting fleet size cap. In your scenario frigates are still officer-less fodder, easy to clean up with few officer-ed ships (but still a chore if you have to constantly do it).
Throw in a slower PPT/CR decay in proportion to held points of interest on top of above, and frigates would be very much viable in head-on battle, without creating additional tedium for player.

(and autofit automation, to manage huge fleet of frigates, as I suggested in - https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17887.0 )

(multiple ships per officers is not an elegant solution, but paying full officer salary per frigate would be just another thing making them nonviable if we just remove officer limits.)
« Last Edit: February 11, 2020, 12:32:07 AM by TaLaR »
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #78 on: February 11, 2020, 01:14:20 AM »

This mode is not supposed to replace decisive battle. If you have battlefleet running - go for it. Thats for situations when you dont have or even dont want to. You are no longer forced to have the battlefleet for the casual looting.

Attacker is supposed to have limited force of fast frigates well in the disengageable size limit. No problems with the officers since he has nothing else to command.
Defender has to pick priorities between its mainforce and picket. And thats the whole point.

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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #79 on: February 11, 2020, 02:48:15 AM »

I still stand by my opinion, if those ambushes happen to the player because they have no frigates then you are reducing frigates to the role of a logistic vessel since players will need them to make sure their cargo ships don't get destroyed.
The player won't ever use them in actual battles now since if they loose their frigates their cargo ships are now defenseless and any gnat can come and ambush him regardless of how many destroyers, cruisers and capitals they have, the ambush system you're proposing has tge complete opposite effect of what you intended since players will get punished for losing frigates in normal battles.
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xenoargh

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #80 on: February 11, 2020, 03:27:15 AM »

Quote
What purpose would ambush mechanic serve other than frustrating the player with constant ambushes?
It'd add real risk to Travel (which is one of the major problems with the game design, as things stand).  Small fleets of fast-movers might have a point against your lumbering all-capship fleet; if you don't have escorts, you could lose your logistics ships.  Sure, most players in regular mode will F9, but for players in Iron Mode, it'll be a really meaningful mechanic and change play style, and not in a bad way.

Quote
AI logistics ships are just for show, destroying them gains you nothing
This has always bothered me.  We destroy fleets of transports and fuel tankers; we cannot get them to surrender and we cannot get the goods they were hauling in reasonable amounts.  This is just one of those areas of the game that should get polished up at some point.  I get that it's not a high priority item vs. the big stuff Alex is working on now, but surrendering should definitely be a thing.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #81 on: February 11, 2020, 03:46:23 AM »

I still stand by my opinion, if those ambushes happen to the player because they have no frigates then you are reducing frigates to the role of a logistic vessel since players will need them to make sure their cargo ships don't get destroyed.
The player won't ever use them in actual battles now since if they loose their frigates their cargo ships are now defenseless and any gnat can come and ambush him regardless of how many destroyers, cruisers and capitals they have, the ambush system you're proposing has tge complete opposite effect of what you intended since players will get punished for losing frigates in normal battles.

This make frigates the important necessity worth trading that deadweight Paragon for. And, obviously, provides all the opportunity needed for the small scale nomadic playstyle without forcing the player to acquire an end game fleet in the first hour of the game.

Also you forgot that transport ships can actually fight back. But its just a good illustration of the current disproportionate battlefleet mentality.

"How much large mounts does this ship have?"
"Zero?"
"Scrap this junk, we need combat ships."
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #82 on: February 11, 2020, 04:09:24 AM »

Yes, transport ships can fight but their shield and flux and armour is often lacking meaning that most frigates can win against them easily (unless you use combat transport ships which are considerably more expensive to maintain and often have so much less cargo/fuel space)
But really, if this ambush system was in place I wouldn't ever want to send frigates into battle since if I lose them then my transports become vulnerable to any ambush.

I also love how you always assume everyone loves Paragon monofleets seeing how often you bring them up in every discussion.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #83 on: February 11, 2020, 05:19:26 AM »

Check Prometheuses stats. Its 1200 armor, 10000 hull, 7000 flux, 300 dissipation. One med and six small mounts. Defence wise its a Venture. Offensive wise its more than enough to kill the Hound or the likes.

Dont lose them then. Just like you dont lose your caps. And if you do lose your caps then whats the problem?

Most new players love Paragons. Thats a fact. However, aforementioned deadweight Paragons are used in the variety of the spam fleets. Thats not the point. It is that there already are unused ship slots in the fleets.
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bobucles

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2020, 06:20:56 AM »

How are you supposed to perform or get ambushed on the strategic layer? The distance between fleets on the map represents several hours or even days of burn travel. It doesn't make sense for an ambushing action to happen in open space.

If the ambushing setup is something like "hide inside an asteroid field and wait for prey", how is the player meant to ever accomplish such a maneuver? Ship paths are pretty random and you could be stuck for days/months waiting for the perfect target. That's hardly a win in any book. The enemy on the other hand can have many fleets in many systems, representing dozens of potential ambushes against your fleet. The player is definitely getting the short straw here.

It's just as important to know how the strategic level works for ambushes, since this will determine how many times the player can succeed or get trapped in ambush style battles. I certainly never found a great solution for it.
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Lucky33

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2020, 06:33:13 AM »

As usual combat starts. When two fleet bubbles join together.

All rationale of the space ambush was already stated in this topic:

https://fractalsoftworks.com/forum/index.php?topic=17886.msg280487#msg280487

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Goumindong

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2020, 10:08:58 AM »

If the ambushing setup is something like "hide inside an asteroid field and wait for prey", how is the player meant to ever accomplish such a maneuver? Ship paths are pretty random and you could be stuck for days/months waiting for the perfect target

Plus the only fleets youre likely to catch are going to be smaller than you.

However i can report that this does work and you can lure fleets (well at least pirate fleets) in by dropping cargo
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xenoargh

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2020, 03:38:30 AM »

Quote
How are you supposed to perform or get ambushed on the strategic layer? The distance between fleets on the map represents several hours or even days of burn travel. It doesn't make sense for an ambushing action to happen in open space.

If the ambushing setup is something like "hide inside an asteroid field and wait for prey", how is the player meant to ever accomplish such a maneuver?
A couple of ideas:

1.  Make it a Skill:  Prepare Ambush
Acts like Going Dark, but even better, but:
A.  Your movement speed is basically zero.
B.  You get bonuses to hiding if in an asteroid belt, Hyperspace cloud, etc.
C.  When in Ambush Mode, you can intercept nearby fleets with a much wider radius than usual, simulating how you'd "leap out of hiding".  Should probably cost a little bit of Fuel and CR.  Radius would have to be drawn.

Give said skill to the AI.  Now Pirates, instead of chasing people, go to good ambush spots and hide.  More realistic and much more interesting.

2.  Make it a contextual thing.  We have the ability to interact with practically any TokenAPI objects.  Why not give a special dialogue / option for good hiding spots?  This is a bit of an issue to do with AI, as it would be a whole new subsystem for them and the player that didn't interact.

3.  Another Skill idea:  "ECM Dump".  Primary usage:  rapidly conceals player from view from anything in between an area (where said ECM is deployed by drones or whatever) and other fleets.  Stays in place for a few hours.  Does not block all view of the player, just LOS.
If player is in the ECM and a fleet enters, player can engage in an ambush.
Give same Skill to AI; let them use it when player is attempting to chase their fleets down and has a higher speed.  Lets AI use Ambush tactical choice to, perhaps, damage player's logistics badly-enough to stop pursuit.


Other thoughts:  In general, the game needs ways for Pirates, especially, to hide and surprise the player.  I'm much less concerned with making these Skills wonderful for the player, but giving players additional tools (and in this case, things to give the game another distinct playstyle, as well as enhancing smuggler builds, traders trying to avoid trouble, etc. is just icing on the cake).  As it is, Going Dark is useful for avoidance of enemies, but has practically zero use as an offensive ability; this would add offensive layers to "being hidden" as well as defensive benefits (ambushers get the choice of what type of engagement to do).
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TaLaR

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2020, 03:53:34 AM »

@xenoargh
Why over-complicate it, when a more simple approach would be better?
For few seconds after being detected by fleet X you have Ambush Advantage against them, if you were the first to detect them (and vice versa). If combat starts while you have this buff vs them, you can make it an ambush fight.

I still think it would be bad for gameplay though - there is nothing for player to gain by ambushing AI fleets (when we define ambush as ability to throw frigates at logistic ships). So this would be a purely anti-player mechanic.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 04:34:02 AM by TaLaR »
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Ambush Bickering
« Reply #89 on: February 12, 2020, 04:21:21 AM »

@xenoargh
Why over-complicate it, when a more simple would be better?
For few seconds after being detected by fleet X you have Ambush Advantage against them, if you were the first to detect them (and vice versa). If combat starts while you have this buff vs them, you can make it an ambush fight.

I still think it would be bad for gameplay though - there is nothing for player to gain by ambushing AI fleets (when we define ambush as ability to throw frigates at logistic ships). So this would be a purely anti-player mechanic.
Make it worth doing for the player by having AI fleets lose CR from destroyed logistic ships.
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