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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: Balancing fighter swarms with out nerfing fighters  (Read 21055 times)

Morrokain

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Re: Balancing fighter swarms with out nerfing fighters
« Reply #180 on: January 30, 2020, 10:43:21 AM »

I'm unsure what can be done to fix that, though, as it is pretty much basic that "the more you have it, the more each single unit does". V: Flaks being better, maybe? Not sure.
Probably revert to how fighters worked before 0.8a.  Fighters as ships, and carriers use OP for guns instead of fighters.

While I agree with the problems regarding combat carriers, I kind of look at this as using a flamethrower instead of a scalpel. I'd rather reduce or outright remove the carrier's dependency on OP for fighters (there are various ways to do this) and preserve the current system.

The old system had a few other good points over the new one- mainly that you could give strike craft specific orders to capture points or intercept each other- but the cons outweigh the pros, imo, and I especially feel this way when I think there are easier ways to implement the stated benefits into the new system. That would be a best of both worlds situation.

(Also, fighter swarms were still an issue pre-0.8a so a reversion to that system wouldn't solve that)

I really dont know how to balance swarms without nerfing fighters. At least they must be nerfed in some mods, where single fighter can facetank plasma barrage.

In vanilla fighters are OK. May be you can balance them adding peak operation time penalty for carrier which replaces too much fighters... Like: minus 2 or 3 seconds per fighter. It will make them just like phase ships, loosing their CR the faster the more they spam their main ability.

I'd rather see replacements have a finite number (either defined in the wing data or defined in the carrier data itself, maybe defined in the wing and a modifier to that amount from the carrier?...) with mechanics to replenish them in some situations instead of mechanics or changes that will reduce the time the carrier is useful in the battle.
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Megas

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Re: Balancing fighter swarms with out nerfing fighters
« Reply #181 on: January 31, 2020, 12:03:55 PM »

(Also, fighter swarms were still an issue pre-0.8a so a reversion to that system wouldn't solve that)
If fleet cap is still (effectively) thirty, there is no way to pack as many fighters-as-ships as twenty Drovers can with fighters-as-missiles.  I suppose a carrier fleet with pre-0.8a fighters would appear something like three carriers, twenty-something wings, and the rest support ships.  Capacity will probably be terrible because fighters have no capacity.
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Daynen

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Re: Balancing fighter swarms with out nerfing fighters
« Reply #182 on: January 31, 2020, 05:25:07 PM »

*EDIT*
So which is it? Do you want to shoot down fighters with your PD weapons or shoot down missiles with your PD weapons? You can't say that you can't use PD weapons to shoot down fighters, and then pretend you actually meant to say they can't shoot down missiles, and then say you actually want PD weapons to serve as fighter deterrents. Non-PD weapons are prefectly fine in shooting down both bombers and fighters. It's honestly not a problem to me, so I can't see why it is a problem to you. I can fight the swarms of fighters from Luddic Church/Persean league/Tri-tachyon fleets just fine with normal weapons and PD weapons.  Flak cannons seem to work fine to me anyways. They kill missiles, and they kill swarms of missiles with their Area effect.

Is there a particular reason PD can't, by design, shoot down both? I mean sure I understand not wanting to mess with PD weapon damage too much to avoid rebalancing missiles, but the suggestion seemed more in line with making flak solely better against fighters without touching the effect it would have on missiles.
There's no reason why PD weapons can't shoot down both fighters and missiles. In fact they can and do so, as they operate just like non-PD weapons against fighters. For instance, a sim Dominator deals with fighters reasonably well with their PD weapons.

What I am objecting to is the nonsensical switching of arguments to suit whatever he happens to be writing. First he says that PD weapons don't anti-fighter properly, so I let him know that PD weapons are anti-missile specifically and that many non-PD weapons are good anti-fighter weapons. Then he quotes me and goes on a ramble about all sorts of things as if he is replying to me some of which contradicts his prior post. He has no reason to quote someone and talk as if he is replying to something that I did not write. If he wanted to write all that, he could had done it without quoting me.

There's a difference between contradicting myself and saying you missed the point by a tiny bit less than you thought.  I appreciate that not everyone grasps every subtlety of every point I think of, though I'm puzzled that quoting you to highlight the specific phrasing I was replying to seems to...upset you?  Might want to put that goalpost down before you develop back problems...
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Morrokain

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Re: Balancing fighter swarms with out nerfing fighters
« Reply #183 on: February 13, 2020, 12:50:48 PM »

If fleet cap is still (effectively) thirty, there is no way to pack as many fighters-as-ships as twenty Drovers can with fighters-as-missiles.  I suppose a carrier fleet with pre-0.8a fighters would appear something like three carriers, twenty-something wings, and the rest support ships.  Capacity will probably be terrible because fighters have no capacity.

Consider that, with this system, flying carriers becomes less attractive to the player:

1) What tactical options is the player given when personally flying a carrier? At least right now there are some since you direct your own strike waves and can support allies with them, whereas in the old system you could fly any ship and still direct strike craft with equal effectiveness. Carriers were utility vessels in most regards and that didn't feel right to me.

2) Especially considering the aesthetic conundrum of strike craft flying in without being attached to any particular carrier, there were other concerns about what carriers, if any, were important considering any wing can refit at any carrier. In that sense it hurts battle tactics.

If we, instead:

A) Increase the viability of weapon loadouts on carriers by creating a separate resource pool or other balancing mechanism for flight decks. (also thereby preserving battlecarrier balancing mechanisms)

and

B) Give tactical flexibility to carriers when a player is piloting them by separating out strike craft into more precisely defined roles and also allow for more nuanced control of their directives.

-It makes that vessel archetype more attractive as a player option while (hopefully) solving your concerns. At least, that is how I am thinking about it.
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