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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse - Updated 28/05/20  (Read 20044 times)

tomatopaste

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #30 on: January 31, 2020, 04:08:24 AM »

Congrats on finally posting this, and as predicted it's already caused its fair share of controversy - maybe this could end up as a forum/discord pin (my two cents, of course ;D).

Any guide inherently creates a visibility divide between mods that are in it and mods that aren't. Because it seems comprehensive, pinning this would not only crush mods that aren't in it, but also new mods that don't make a big enough splash.

Agreed. This especially denigrates unique mods that otherwise create new concepts or mess with stats to have fun.
You're right, I was very hasty in that assessment heh.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 05:04:37 AM by tomatopaste »
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Captain Trek

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #31 on: January 31, 2020, 06:12:13 AM »

Any guide inherently creates a visibility divide between mods that are in it and mods that aren't. Because it seems comprehensive, pinning this would not only crush mods that aren't in it, but also new mods that don't make a big enough splash.

I really have to dispute the notion that my guide would be worse than the systems we already have in place in this regard. The biggest reason prv is criminally overlooked is because it doesn't show up in the Mod Index. And indeed, new up-and-coming mods like Gal. Tigers and Kipling don't get placed there until they prove themselves a bit either (Sozzer's hasn't even made it to the Index yet, but is already in my guide). Vayra's pin in Modded Relay is anything but comprehensive, and when people ask for recommendations they invariably get told about the popular stuff the people responding to their queries already know that they themselves like. All of those things already serve to "crush" less well-known mods. Quite contrary to your position, I firmly believe my guide can serve to shed more light on mods that people otherwise wouldn't have known about than they currently get.

Agreed. This especially denigrates unique mods that otherwise create new concepts or mess with stats to have fun.

I'd be very interested to know what mods, specifically, that I'm "denigrating", so I can correct any such issues. I can assure you that the overwhelming majority of mods presently missing from the guide are mods I plan on adding in the future. Most particularly Discord-exclusives. What you see here is just version 1. The fruits of several months of labour, but by no means complete.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 08:56:33 AM by Captain Trek »
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tomatopaste

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2020, 06:27:58 AM »

Any guide inherently creates a visibility divide between mods that are in it and mods that aren't. Because it seems comprehensive, pinning this would not only crush mods that aren't in it, but also new mods that don't make a big enough splash.

I really have to dispute the notion that my guide would be worse than the systems we already have in place in this regard. The biggest reason prv is criminally overlooked is because it doesn't show up in the Mod Index. And indeed, new up-and-coming mods like Gal. Tigers and Kipling don't get placed there until they prove themselves a bit either (and Sozzer's hasn't even made it to the Index yet, but it's already in my guide). Vayra's pin in Modded Relay is anything but comprehensive, and when people ask for recommendations they invariably get told about the popular stuff the people responding to their queries already know that they themselves like. All of those things already serve to "crush" less well-known mods. Quite contrary to your position, I firmly believe my guide can serve to shed more light on mods that people otherwise wouldn't have known about than they currently get.

Agreed. This especially denigrates unique mods that otherwise create new concepts or mess with stats to have fun.

I'd be very interested to know what mods, specifically, that I'm "denigrating" so I can actually correct any such issues, as otherwise this feels rather like an unsubstantiated insult. The overwhelming majority of mods presently missing from the guide are mods I plan on adding in the future. Most particularly Discord-exclusives. What you see here is just version 1. The fruits of several months of labour, but by no means complete.

Trek has a point here, as the author of one of the aforementioned up and coming mods, I agree that any "mod crushing" and "denigration" this post causes is in most cases likely justified (looking at the shelves of low effort portrait packs here...). While I agree with my pin suggestion being a little unnecessary, I think that some claims should be substantiated.
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #33 on: January 31, 2020, 07:49:48 AM »

I really have to dispute the notion that my guide would be worse than the systems we already have in place in this regard.

The difference is not in quality. I think you've written a good guide, Captain Trek, and it will help people find mods they will like.

Your guide —any guide—, however, is inherently subjective and therefore should not be pinned on the forum. (I could see maybe a pinned post listing various mod guides.) The mod index is different - AFAIK the only criteria to get a mod on the index is that it have a forum thread and you PM a moderator.
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SCC

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #34 on: January 31, 2020, 12:20:28 PM »

You must remember that the reason a mod doesn't show up in the mod index, assuming there was no drama that made it disappear, is because the mod author doesn't think it's ready, and so didn't ask moderators to move it to Mods subforum. It's up to him and it's his choice.

DarkOmegaMK2

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #35 on: January 31, 2020, 12:39:32 PM »

I don't like this "denigration" mindset of "if it's not listed, then it's being made less or it's crushing mods" instead of thinking "Someone actually took the time to make a very comprehensive spotlight to almost all mods", so please, change this mindset immediately and start thinking more positively. If a mod is not listed here, i'm sure that doesn't mean it won't ever be listed here and that Captain Trek will keep this excellent guide as updated as possible.

As for the guide itself, while i don't agree with 100% of what it says, it is an excellent piece of work and a huge help new people, hell, it's even been helpful to me even thought i know a lot of the mods already. So congrats on getting this massive piece of work!
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connortron7

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2020, 01:02:31 PM »

I don't like this "denigration" mindset of "if it's not listed, then it's being made less or it's crushing mods" instead of thinking "Someone actually took the time to make a very comprehensive spotlight to almost all mods", so please, change this mindset immediately and start thinking more positively. If a mod is not listed here, i'm sure that doesn't mean it won't ever be listed here and that Captain Trek will keep this excellent guide as updated as possible.

As for the guide itself, while i don't agree with 100% of what it says, it is an excellent piece of work and a huge help new people, hell, it's even been helpful to me even thought i know a lot of the mods already. So congrats on getting this massive piece of work!

Agreed, what trek made is great! Havent had the chance to read it all yet but its good stuff.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 01:04:39 PM by connortron7 »
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #37 on: January 31, 2020, 02:51:07 PM »

I don't like this "denigration" mindset of "if it's not listed, then it's being made less or it's crushing mods" instead of thinking "Someone actually took the time to make a very comprehensive spotlight to almost all mods", so please, change this mindset immediately and start thinking more positively. If a mod is not listed here, i'm sure that doesn't mean it won't ever be listed here and that Captain Trek will keep this excellent guide as updated as possible.

As for the guide itself, while i don't agree with 100% of what it says, it is an excellent piece of work and a huge help new people, hell, it's even been helpful to me even thought i know a lot of the mods already. So congrats on getting this massive piece of work!

First of all, I want to say that I'm truly not trying to insult you, Captain Trek. I've even recommended this guide to someone on my mod thread who didn't want to learn about rebalanced combat and specifically wanted vanilla-balanced mods. I am not saying its not useful and that there wasn't a substantial amount of effort put into it:

I don't really want to relearn the game, as it seems almost everything from weapon names to ship hulls is changed

*snip* if you are looking for just another vanilla experience with different ships and weapons, this mod is probably not for you. :) I will likely release some kind of balanced ship and weapon/faction pack at some point in the future, but there is a lot to get through first.

In the meantime, if that is what you are looking for, there are lots and lots of high quality faction mods out there that are very vanilla-friendly. There is also a guide on the modding sub-forum that attempts to categorize them by how close to vanilla standards they are.

However, see the main page of the guide:

Isn't this all just your opinion?
Frankly? Yes. With something like this it's sort of inevitable. However, my goal is simply to provide both a starting point and broad, convenient overviews of what to expect out of each mod so you can plan out a better modded experience for yourself. This guide is not and should not be treated as gospel regarding what mods to use or in what combinations. Though I've attempted to craft a strong gameplay experience with each modlist, my suggestions are as valid as anyone else's.
[close]

Despite this thoughtful disclaimer, a guide like this is inherently biased because it is someone's opinion. Whether the intention to do this is there or not, the end result of something like this is that it does discourage players from choosing a mod not seen as "approved" by being on the list. This, quite frankly, is just human nature. It is easier to follow a list rather than figure things out on your own, so people will most likely just stick to the list. You are essentially making up their mind for them rather than promoting them to experiment and learn all this on their own. I could name so many games with modding communities that have taken severe damage by "promoting" established mods over new ones...

Trek has a point here, as the author of one of the aforementioned up and coming mods, I agree that any "mod crushing" and "denigration" this post causes is in most cases likely justified (looking at the shelves of low effort portrait packs here...). While I agree with my pin suggestion being a little unnecessary, I think that some claims should be substantiated.

I am sure this is not your intention, but this comment is very elitist in nature. The amount of effort put into a mod doesn't make it worthy or not worthy. I mean, heck, if effort were the thing that gets a mod on the list then the 8 years I've put into my mod should be enough right? Nope, it's out of scope as a TC. So, yes, in a sense this guide does hurt the exposure and denigrates all TCs (And IP mods) - I just happen to be the only TC even available at the moment.

But to be clear, even if this guide said "Archean Order is the best mod in the community, please play it right now!!" I still wouldn't be in favor of a sticky due to the above reasons.

Also, having a "Not Recommended" category is not great... It doesn't matter if this is due to technical reasons or not. You are assuming the user even stops to read the description to find out why. Not being on the list in and of itself will discourage users from trying out the mod, you don't have to explicitly give names on top of it.

Imagine, for a moment, a new and inexperienced modder wants to make a mod. He/she does and releases it. Less people will even give the mod a chance because its not on the "curated list" of community mods. A new mod shouldn't have to fight for a chance in this way- that should happen naturally if the work is quality, and even if its not at first the feedback from people trying it out when searching through mods makes it better. You may think "I will stay on top of this and make sure all mods are mentioned, described, etc, etc" but there is no guarantee that you will even be around on the forums forever. So, once the list is "finalized" when you leave, any new mods while you aren't around will not get the chance they deserve.


TLDR: I appreciate the effort put forth, but its not a matter of "thinking positive" its a matter of the actual effect of the guide whether intended or not. It will by its very nature hurt any mod not on the list.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #38 on: January 31, 2020, 02:56:27 PM »

Welcome to the exciting world of free internet labor, where your sincere effort is taken as a de facto proof of ill intent.

If someone can't figure out what to play without a guide, that person has bigger problems than potentially missing out on an obscure mod. And if someone can't manage to get their mod finished enough to go on the index or work up the courage to drop a PM to the people who maintain lists and guides - same deal.

I had a worse reception than most people would when I started, and nobody bothered to think about whether or not they were discouraging me. Certainly nobody cared if they did. I went from 'nobody will play your mod' to a series of paranoid conspiracy theories about my giant ego and shadowy master plans to control the way people play and crush fun.

You should be doing this for yourself, not for other people, because God only knows, there's no reward besides enjoying the process.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #39 on: January 31, 2020, 03:05:31 PM »

Welcome to the exciting world of free internet labor, where your sincere effort is taken as a de facto proof of ill intent.

Are you talking about my post by this? I never said there was any ill intent. I actually said the exact opposite of that...

Cause and effect have nothing to do with intention.

If someone can't figure out what to play without a guide, that person has bigger problems than potentially missing out on an obscure mod. And if someone can't manage to get their mod finished enough to go on the index or work up the courage to drop a PM to the people who maintain lists and guides - same deal.

Its not that they can't its that its more convenient to follow a list. Obscure? How are TCs obscure?? And I did say something to the OP, btw, when I didn't see my mod included. I also was in no way mean about it. Honestly hurt was probably the better word, but you are right noone on the internet is here to make anyone feel better.

I had a worse reception than most people would when I started, and nobody bothered to think about whether or not they were discouraging me. Certainly nobody cared if they did. I went from 'nobody will play your mod' to a series of paranoid conspiracy theories about my giant ego and shadowy master plans to control the way people play and crush fun.

Sorry you had that experience. That doesn't sound fun. I'm trying to reduce the chance of that happening to a new modder by advocating neutrality over bias. Everyone deserves a fair chance.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 03:08:37 PM by Morrokain »
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Sagitta

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2020, 03:24:22 PM »

I like it. Provides additional commentary on what a mod offers and how well it fits into the established game world and lore. I also think its great that you included effects on campaign gameplay, since those are not immediatly apparent to someone that wants to try out mods for the first time.

Also, can you tell me what might be considered odd about the Oppressor, Dire Wolf and Tarsus Ultra? I´ve played so long whit Vayra´s Ship Pack that I probably don´t question it anymore  ;D
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shoi

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2020, 03:52:14 PM »

Welcome to the exciting world of free internet labor, where your sincere effort is taken as a de facto proof of ill intent.

If someone can't figure out what to play without a guide, that person has bigger problems than potentially missing out on an obscure mod. And if someone can't manage to get their mod finished enough to go on the index or work up the courage to drop a PM to the people who maintain lists and guides - same deal.

not to dispute your claim(I agree with you), but we live in the youtube era where people can't decide whether to buy x or y without seeing what some random person on the internet thinks. It's very much the same with mods and i've seen it happen dozens of times on the discord. Most folks will opt to use a readily available resource instead of just blindly download stuff and hope for the best. It's for that same reason why I think this guide won't change much though, since people would give them biased suggestions (for the most part) anyway. At least trek goes into depth as to the why
« Last Edit: January 31, 2020, 03:53:50 PM by shoi »
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #42 on: January 31, 2020, 04:04:44 PM »

Sorry you had that experience. That doesn't sound fun. I'm trying to reduce the chance of that happening to a new modder by advocating neutrality over bias. Everyone deserves a fair chance.

What you're actually doing is discouraging people from making any kind of guides or lists at all. If the choice is 'put in a bunch of work and get told you're 'denigrating' mods you don't give the treatment someone thought they deserved' and 'do nothing and continue to enjoy the game', most people will pick the latter, just like anybody who starts modding for any other reason besides their own personal enjoyment is a sucker. I enjoy making things regardless of who plays them, so it's win-win for me no matter how popular or visible or acclaimed or hated what I made is. Obviously I like positive feedback and I don't enjoy the negative stuff, but neither one determines what I do or don't do.

If people slavishly obey a reviewer's rankings and overlook your mod, there's nothing you can do about that. You can't control it, it's not a reflection on you, and you can't focus on what other people think of what you're doing and still be a hobbyist in this for the enjoyment of making something. Then you just have an unpaid gamedev job, which seems like a perfectly symmetric punishment, frankly.

Welcome to the exciting world of free internet labor, where your sincere effort is taken as a de facto proof of ill intent.

If someone can't figure out what to play without a guide, that person has bigger problems than potentially missing out on an obscure mod. And if someone can't manage to get their mod finished enough to go on the index or work up the courage to drop a PM to the people who maintain lists and guides - same deal.

not to dispute your claim(I agree with you), but we live in the youtube era where people can't decide whether to buy x or y without seeing what some random person on the internet thinks. It's very much the same with mods and i've seen it happen dozens of times on the discord. Most folks will opt to use a readily available resource instead of just blindly download stuff and hope for the best. It's for that same reason why I think this guide won't change much though, since people would give them biased suggestions (for the most part) anyway. At least trek goes into depth as to the why

Right - if someone can't figure out how to extract useful information from his reviews - and I disagree with a good few of them, including of my own mod - they have problems bigger than deciding what mods to play.

Telling people why you think what you think is the respectful thing to do. Then people can examine your reasoning and see if they agree with it. Just telling someone what to play without telling them why would be a problem, but this is several times more complex and therefore useful than that. Apparently that's still not enough for some oversensitive souls.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #43 on: January 31, 2020, 04:51:26 PM »

You are correct. I think lists like these are damaging to the modding community and clearly favor the old guard. I never said take it down though. I just dont want it stickied. Also, the credibility of your defense is a little suspect considering your mod is literally the first one on the list.

If you enjoy making things just to make them, as you say, then would you mind taking down your donation link?

Again, I recommended it to a user so I'm not completely against it, but it shouldn't be made cannon- which is what stickying it would do.
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DarkOmegaMK2

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #44 on: January 31, 2020, 06:07:46 PM »

Despite this thoughtful disclaimer, a guide like this is inherently biased because it is someone's opinion. Whether the intention to do this is there or not, the end result of something like this is that it does discourage players from choosing a mod not seen as "approved" by being on the list. This, quite frankly, is just human nature. It is easier to follow a list rather than figure things out on your own, so people will most likely just stick to the list. You are essentially making up their mind for them rather than promoting them to experiment and learn all this on their own. I could name so many games with modding communities that have taken severe damage by "promoting" established mods over new ones...

I'd like to discuss this point, because i think we have very different notions of what a "bias" or an "opinion" may imply. As you mentioned in that post, the guide does estate that this is the opinion of someone, but for some reason this is seen as a bad thing by itself. If it was like this then pretty much every single post on the internet and every single piece of work and literature would be bad also, because they too follow a "bias", either cultural, political, etc.

The idea of "pure neutrality" is something that simply does not exist because we are not robots. As i said in my post before, i don't agree with 100% of what the guide says, and you what? that is perfect! because by the end of the day i am reading the opinion of someone who experienced all of these mods and has taken the time and courtesy of detailing them in a very through fashion.

Is it an opinion by the end of the day? yes, absolutely.
Does this immediately make it inherently bad? no, because the author of the post is not going around discrediting mods, even the "not recommended" list is trying to focus more on the issues that are brought on a technical level.

When i meant to look at this on a more "positive" fashion, what i actually meant is shifting the issue you propose of "this (the guide) specially denigrating mods", instead we should be asking "how can we make these mods have a place on this guide?" or "why aren't they listed?", a more constructive approach would be more beneficial as a whole.
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