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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Updated the Forum Rules and Guidelines (02/29/20); Blog post: GIF Roundup (04/11/20)

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Author Topic: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse - Updated 28/05/20  (Read 20049 times)

SCC

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2020, 05:26:24 AM »

I'm surprised you didn't put Console Commands higher in the list. It's mighty useful with fixing game issues.

Quote from: Captain Trek link=topic=17807.msg279675#msg279675
I tried that, but Luddic Enhancement's green Onslaughts don't seem to do the job. Hell, they don't seem to show up much at all, even without SWP installed. ^^;
Sounds like LE is bugged. Do these Onslaughts spawn under other circumstances? I feel like it's more of an issue with vanilla capital spam, than with SWP in particular.

Captain Trek

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 05:44:52 AM »

I feel like it's more of an issue with vanilla capital spam, than with SWP in particular.
It is, but that just means any other mod that were to also plug a super-capital into a faction's normal ship production would encounter the same problem.
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Dark.Revenant

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2020, 10:28:04 AM »

You might want to update LC and SWP.  The LC Onslaught should outnumber the Cathedral 15-to-2 if Alex programmed the game's ship spawning system correctly.
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xenoargh

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2020, 10:30:44 AM »

For people with potato computers struggling with Vanilla, I humbly suggest that they try my mod out.  Multithreaded, multiprocessed AIs and FX mean that the game runs considerably smoother on many rigs.
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Xeno's Mod Pack

Captain Trek

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2020, 02:38:43 AM »

You might want to update LC and SWP.  The LC Onslaught should outnumber the Cathedral 15-to-2 if Alex programmed the game's ship spawning system correctly.
Okay, so I updated SWP and, sure enough, with Luddhancement active Cathedrals now spawn at what I would say are relatively acceptable levels. Not low enough for vanilla-adjacent status, mind you, but satisfactory from a gameplay standpoint at least. It seems a bit odd that your patch notes for version 1.10.5 don't mention Cathedral spawn rates being changed at all, which is why I missed it since the updates that are listed in the patch notes didn't seem like they'd significantly change anything about the write-up SWP was going to get in the mod guide.

Here's the thing, though...

I also tested the game without Luddhancement active, and in those circumstances Cathedrals simply do not spawn. At all. Ever. I did a ton of ForceMarketUpdates at the size 6 LC military market from Stop Gap, looked at raiding fleets, looked at invasions fleets... and there was not a Cathedral to be had anywhere... just Legions. And actually? I don't know if this was intentional on your part, but even if it wasn't this seems like a prime example of Good Bad Bugs, or, "It's not a bug. It's a feature!" With Luddhancement being required to bring Cathedrals into the game, that makes it quite easy to place SWP on both modlists, much like how VSP and Kadur only become non-adjacent when Vayra's Sector is active. So I, at least, would strongly encourage you to keep this as it is. But what do you intend to do?

EDIT: I had it suggested to me that Stop Gap might be responsible for messing up ship spawns, but I tried it again without it and the exact same thing happened - no Cathedrals unless Luddhancement was also active.

EDIT 2: So it gets weirder. It turns out if you have Vayra's Sector installed at the same time as SWP and Luddhancement, the former effectively "turns off" LE's ships, reducing the Church back to just generic Legions with no Cathedrals, as if you were running SWP without Luddhancement.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 09:48:46 AM by Captain Trek »
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MajorTheRed

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2020, 07:48:48 AM »

EDIT: I had it suggested to me that Stop Gap might be responsible for messing up ship spawns, but I tried it again without it and the exact same thing happened - no Cathedrals unless Luddhancement was also active.

Do you have any detail about how my mod could mess with the spawn? I definitively don't want that to happen and need to fix it if I did something wrong

By the way, thanks for doing this post, there is so many mod that newcomers can struggle to choose which mods will suit their tastes!
I'm glad about your review of SGM, things you liked were part of the common design, and the weakness are helpfull to know! (definitely need to do something abouth the Zenith :S).
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Captain Trek

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2020, 09:47:25 AM »

Your support is appreciated, Major! ^^

Do you have any detail about how my mod could mess with the spawn? I definitively don't want that to happen and need to fix it if I did something wrong
I'm afraid I won't be much help there since I heard it, essentially, as a rumor. You can ask Avanitia if he knows more, but I wouldn't count on it.

(definitely need to do something abouth the Zenith :S).
I mean I like the Zenith. I just made a note that anyone who wants to be a "purist" about TPCs being Onslaught-exclusive probably won't like it.
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Wispborne

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2020, 01:55:32 PM »

How do I install mods?: Nemonaemo covers the basic installation process here: https://youtu.be/PwquQTmOwYs?t=155 .

If this is a guide for new folks, I have some concern that that video doesn't mention that when you update a mod, you need to remove the old mod folder before adding the new one. His method of extracting a downloaded .zip right in your /mods folder will simply merge and replace the folder when an user updates a mod, which will cause bugs.

It miiiight be worth mentioning Vortex as a mod manager, up to you though. It lets you install mods just by selecting the zip/7z file, enable/disable with a click, and have multiple mod profiles. But most folks here don't use it and won't be able to help new users out with it.

Quote
Mod updates that are save game compatible are very much the exception, not the rule. This is not the fault of the modders

ehhh it's kinda our fault lol, most of the time anyway. Fact is that most of us are not professionals, we're hobbyists and making cool stuff is more fun than paying attention to and testing that updates are save-compatible.

Fair writeup on Gates Awakened, btw. Appreciate seeing it in there.

Tartiflette

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2020, 03:00:51 PM »

ehhh it's kinda our fault lol, most of the time anyway. Fact is that most of us are not professionals, we're hobbyists and making cool stuff is more fun than paying attention to and testing that updates are save-compatible.
Errrr no it's not? You simply can't do a lot of things without a new game. Removing/Replacing/modifying anything that is currently used will break the game and that has nothing to do with professionalism.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2020, 03:17:43 PM »

What I think he's referring to is the hobbyist nature of mod architecture. It's possible to design, from the ground up, a mod so that there's no strict need to ever make save-breaking updates - but most of us don't do that because the game is still underdevelopment and gets save-breaking updates itself, and we're noodling around with this in our free time in an unstructured way. That's not a bad thing; it's just what happens when you're only doing what you feel like when the mood strikes you and you have time to.

Most of my biggest save-breaking and balance issues came from stuff I did before I'd shown anyone anything I was working on. Once it was public, I became more disciplined about it, and if I were getting paid start to finish, I'd be more disciplined about scope and feature expectations from the beginning. I'd sit down and map out everything and create a timeline, then commit to a given set of features at a given level of polish in a given timeframe, and charge appropriately. I'd also wait until the game itself was done, so I only had to do balance and implementation once instead of chasing moving targets.

(RE: DME missions being too easy - yeah, probably, but remember that you, the forum-posting user, are likely in the top 10% or 5% of all Starsector players. One of the things standalone missions do is let absolutely green players pick up your mod, plug it in, and get a look at what's in it. I don't spend a lot of time on them, so I'm sure they could be improved, but they also don't need to be difficult; they need to serve the purpose of showing the player some of what they're getting.)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 12:25:46 AM by Harmful Mechanic »
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Wispborne

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2020, 07:07:42 PM »

ehhh it's kinda our fault lol, most of the time anyway. Fact is that most of us are not professionals, we're hobbyists and making cool stuff is more fun than paying attention to and testing that updates are save-compatible.
Errrr no it's not? You simply can't do a lot of things without a new game. Removing/Replacing/modifying anything that is currently used will break the game and that has nothing to do with professionalism.

Harmful Mechanic pretty much covered it. You're right that you can't do many things without a new game, but in many cases, you don't need to do those things. Removing a ship from your mod? Leave the assets there but make it no longer sold. Add some code in `onGameLoaded` to remove existing copies of the ship, if you wish.

In general you can avoid breaking saves by always making additive changes and, if needed, a migration path. This will cause your code to get more complicated and your mod to include assets that it no longer uses, but such is the price. You could keep a running list of all of the breaking changes you want to make, and periodically come out with a breaking version; ideally one without any other changes so that people don't feel forced to make a new game to try your new stuff, but in practice it's often easier to bundle breaking changes with major new content. There are of course exceptions; you can't change your mod id, you can't change ship/hullmod ids (but you can create new versions of them with the new id and migrate a player's savegame to the new version on load).

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to convince anyone to do this and I don't mean to sound, like, elitist or anything (which I sometimes do unintentionally).This is perhaps the best modding community I've ever seen and everybody should keep doing what they're doing because it's clearly working very well.

Captain Trek

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2020, 08:03:35 PM »

God damn it, you guys, let me give you the benefit of the doubt! XD

I have some concern that that video doesn't mention that when you update a mod, you need to remove the old mod folder before adding the new one. His method of extracting a downloaded .zip right in your /mods folder will simply merge and replace the folder when an user updates a mod, which will cause bugs.
Added a note accordingly.

RE: DME missions being too easy - yeah, probably, but remember that you, the forum-posting user, are likely in the top 10% or 5% of all Starsector players.
I'm actually not that good at actually flying the ships. ^^;
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tomatopaste

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2020, 07:24:06 PM »

Congrats on finally posting this, and as predicted it's already caused its fair share of controversy - maybe this could end up as a forum/discord pin (my two cents, of course ;D).
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SafariJohn

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2020, 08:11:13 PM »

Congrats on finally posting this, and as predicted it's already caused its fair share of controversy - maybe this could end up as a forum/discord pin (my two cents, of course ;D).

Any guide inherently creates a visibility divide between mods that are in it and mods that aren't. Because it seems comprehensive, pinning this would not only crush mods that aren't in it, but also new mods that don't make a big enough splash.
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Morrokain

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Re: [0.9.1a] Captain Trek's Guide to the Modiverse
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2020, 11:41:43 PM »

Congrats on finally posting this, and as predicted it's already caused its fair share of controversy - maybe this could end up as a forum/discord pin (my two cents, of course ;D).

Any guide inherently creates a visibility divide between mods that are in it and mods that aren't. Because it seems comprehensive, pinning this would not only crush mods that aren't in it, but also new mods that don't make a big enough splash.

Agreed. This especially denigrates unique mods that otherwise create new concepts or mess with stats to have fun.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 11:45:13 PM by Morrokain »
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