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Author Topic: 'Run Simulation' Question  (Read 3832 times)

Broetchenholer

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'Run Simulation' Question
« on: January 20, 2020, 05:03:58 AM »

Hi,

i am playingthe vanilla game and am about 2 hours in, coming back to my safegame fairly often because at some point i make a stupid mistake and lose my fleet and usually forget to save, so i am back to the savepoint. I am running at this point the ships from the standard start, so Wolf + Shephard, Hammerhead (D) and the Condor(D), as well as 2 more bought Wolfs. I have 100k credits and a great perspective for more moneys and in the Hegemony world, there is a Sunder and another Hammerhead to buy, the latter with compromised armor, for 50k. Now, i've tried both of them out several times now in Run Simulation, usually against each other, to see which is the better investment. Thing is, they both wreck me completly. I am certainly not very good at piloting but i do know what i should be doing, the thing is just, the simulation ships thrown at me competely outperform what i can do to them. If i am in a Sunder, the Hammerhead keeps me at range and shoots me until my shield has to go down or i overload. Getting close enough is almost impossible without dying. If i am in a Hammerhead, i can keep the Sunder at bay but i cannot deal any damage to it. If i let it get into range, it will basically murder me in 5 seconds.

Now, i know that some of this is due to my available weapons. I can't equip anything better on the Sunder then a Pulse laser and 2 IR Pulse Lasers, I do own one Plasma Cannon, but id did not really help me either when i tried it. I am using expanded magazines. Or stuff that is probably even worse for it. Like Ion Cannons or Antimatter Blasters. The Cersion the Simulation is using utilizes an Autopulselaser and 2 Pulselasers if i recall correctly, and muuuuurders me in the hammerhead. I have not been able to emulate that level of burst in my own ship though. Not even close. Instead, i am typically losing the fight headon against any destroyer in the simulation due to hard flux. Besides being bad and not taking damage into the armor instead of overheating and stuff like that, is the difference between the weapons really that big? I feel like the ships are behaving enitrely different when i play them and the simulation does, but that is probably not the case. For reference, the Hammerhead is using 2 Arbalest AC, 2 Railguns and 2 Harpoon MRMs and 2 Vulcan, 20 flux diisipation thingies, expanded ammo and reinforced bulk heads, the rest is flux capacity. The Sunder i tried with every combination of weapons available, probably best was Pulse laser, 2x IR Pulse Lasers, 2 Railguns, 2 sabot MRM, a vulcan, expanded ammo, reinforced bulkheads, 20 flux dissipation and the rest in capacity. Problem was always that the bad shields would make me overheat the second i allowed the enemy to shoot at me without dealing enough shield damage to them.

So, how big would you say is the difference between a 2D Hammerhead and a underarmed Sunder compared to the best decked out variants from simulation mode?
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Rocksummit

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2020, 05:49:52 AM »

Unfortunately i lack any experience regarding the Sunder. However the Hammerhead i've tried with all possible builds and only found one build that it's good for and thats with "Safety Override" with 2x Assault chainguns. It will tear that Sunder to pieces. I keep at least 3 SO Hammerheads in my own fleet just for giggles.
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Plantissue

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2020, 06:16:47 AM »

Press U and see how the AI plays your ships. You should be playing better than the AI. As a human, you don't have to shoot with all weapons and can choose to shoot with whatever weapons when appropriate. Also turn off your shield if it will otherwise overload is a good tip. If all else fails, just copy their builds; afterall they are better than whatever you have built.

Both the Sunder and the Hammerhead have the same speed, so I don't know how one is catching you and the other one isn't. The sim does not cheat. Make sure your C|R is at 70% as that does affect the speed and damage slightly.
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Lucky33

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2020, 06:26:25 AM »

How do I put this? Sim ships are just mediocre benchmark targets.

Dont even bother go head on into a gunfight against Hammerhead with Arbalests and Railguns. Your only option are Sabots.

Your problem with the Autopulse Sunder is not the Autopulse but the accompanying burst from the Light Needlers which has their range boosted by the Integrated Targeting Unit and Sabots (Sunder will fire first). Autopulse only finishes your already flux topped ship. Install Unstable Injector onto Hammerhead. Max out flux capacity and dissipation and bait all three charges of the Energy Focus (purple glow of the guns) by getting in and out of the max range, vent if needed, bait long burst of the Autopulse (preferably by taking Light Needlers on hull). Disengage and vent. Bait now not so long burst of the Autopulse (same goes for taking Needlers fire on hull). If you still have about half the flux then commit fully into the close range, fire two linked Sabot volleys to overload Sunder and open up with the guns in the backward mounts while pressing that nice F button. After you will see red numbers coming from the Sunder, fire your last Sabot volley. Clean up the mess.

Congratulations.

You need only two Ligh Assault Guns and two Sabot SRM for this. If you have some more advanced weapons it can help.

Learn to distinguish the needles.

Do not set your guns on auto and do not even bother to shoot them before overload.

Backward mounts are more likely to stay online while you will be taking damage with your front. But watch for your Sabots. Wait for them to get back online if they got damaged too soon.
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Broetchenholer

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2020, 06:51:23 AM »

Press U and see how the AI plays your ships. You should be playing better than the AI. As a human, you don't have to shoot with all weapons and can choose to shoot with whatever weapons when appropriate. Also turn off your shield if it will otherwise overload is a good tip. If all else fails, just copy their builds; afterall they are better than whatever you have built.

Both the Sunder and the Hammerhead have the same speed, so I don't know how one is catching you and the other one isn't. The sim does not cheat. Make sure your C|R is at 70% as that does affect the speed and damage slightly.

Pressing U is a good tip, that should show whether the build is much worse or i am. Yes, they are the same speed, but the Sunder is shorter range then the Hammerhead, at least the Simulation version was lower range then my hammerhead as well as my Sunder to the Simulation Hammerhead. Therefor it's a matter of how far the hammerhead let's the Sunder get. if i just buy the ship, it's at 50CR right? So getting some back before i start testing might be reasonable.

How do I put this? Sim ships are just mediocre benchmark targets.

Dont even bother go head on into a gunfight against Hammerhead with Arbalests and Railguns. Your only option are Sabots.

Your problem with the Autopulse Sunder is not the Autopulse but the accompanying burst from the Light Needlers which has their range boosted by the Integrated Targeting Unit and Sabots (Sunder will fire first). Autopulse only finishes your already flux topped ship. Install Unstable Injector onto Hammerhead. Max out flux capacity and dissipation and bait all three charges of the Energy Focus (purple glow of the guns) by getting in and out of the max range, vent if needed, bait long burst of the Autopulse (preferably by taking Light Needlers on hull). Disengage and vent. Bait now not so long burst of the Autopulse (same goes for taking Needlers fire on hull). If you still have about half the flux then commit fully into the close range, fire two linked Sabot volleys to overload Sunder and open up with the guns in the backward mounts while pressing that nice F button. After you will see red numbers coming from the Sunder, fire your last Sabot volley. Clean up the mess.

Congratulations.

You need only two Ligh Assault Guns and two Sabot SRM for this. If you have some more advanced weapons it can help.

Learn to distinguish the needles.

Do not set your guns on auto and do not even bother to shoot them before overload.

Backward mounts are more likely to stay online while you will be taking damage with your front. But watch for your Sabots. Wait for them to get back online if they got damaged too soon.

See, this is what i mean. If i understand you correctly, you say a) don't go into a gunfight with a Sunder against a Hammerhead with Arbalests and Railguns and b) in order to win with a Hammerhead against a Sunder, just play super clever, bait out the Energy Focus and then, if you live, you can finish the Sunder with Sabots. Which would mean the Hammerhead is super strong against the Sunder but the Sunder is super strong agsinst the Hammerhead. Which is exactly what i am experiencing :D But i guess you meant don't bother to go head on into a gunfight with against a Sunder with Arbalests and Railguns. In that case, i will try to get a bit more practice in against the Sunder.

And for buying the Sunder, should i even do it as long as i don't have Anti-Shield, or good mediums energy weapons for that matter?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 07:15:42 AM by Broetchenholer »
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Plantissue

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2020, 07:17:16 AM »

There is a bar on the top left that you can change to 70% CR before you press the sim button. You have to keep resetting though, if you switch between ships in the fleet screen. The Sunder might have shorter range, but once you can get within range, you should be able to stay in range of the hammerhead.  You can try toggling on and off your shields appropriately till you get into range, or drift sideways so your front facing weapons aren't disabled, or bait out the Hammerhead's ship system and then go in range so you can get into your own weapon range.

Your post is a bit of a jumble so I missed it, but since you have a Plasma cannon, try Plasma Cannon with no other energy weapons as the Plasma cannon is as powerful as 2-3 medium energy weapons. Alone it is more powerful than your Pulse laser and 2 IR Pulse lasers, with greater range. Yes weapons matters.

As for Hammerhead against Sunder do you press F? Actually for both ships, do you press F and engage their ship systems that boosts their damage for a short period of time? Toggle your shields if need be.
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Lucky33

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2020, 07:59:00 AM »

See, this is what i mean. If i understand you correctly, you say a) don't go into a gunfight with a Sunder against a Hammerhead with Arbalests and Railguns and b) in order to win with a Hammerhead against a Sunder, just play super clever, bait out the Energy Focus and then, if you live, you can finish the Sunder with Sabots. Which would mean the Hammerhead is super strong against the Sunder but the Sunder is super strong agsinst the Hammerhead. Which is exactly what i am experiencing :D But i guess you meant don't bother to go head on into a gunfight with against a Sunder with Arbalests and Railguns. In that case, i will try to get a bit more practice in against the Sunder.

And for buying the Sunder, should i even do it as long as i don't have Anti-Shield, or good mediums energy weapons for that matter?

Its mostly a matter of guns, hullmods and skills. When you get your Hypervelocity Drivers and Integrated Targeting Unit you will notice that sim Sunder is just a pushover and can be destroyed without ever letting it use its guns. Learn Defensive Systems, install Hardened Shields and you will see that flux situation is much more managable now.

However, as I understand, you dont have anything advanced yet and its nice time to learn how things work.

Do not buy the Sunder because sim version is based on the rare guns (Light Needlers) and hullmod (Integrated Targeting Unit). You will not get the same performance from the common version.

Sure, go on and practice. That sim Sunder is good to show how to manage your flux under burst fire. Help you learn the importance of capacitors. And, no, Arbalests and Railguns will not help because Sunder will just vent in your face. You need to get an Overload with the Sabots.
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Broetchenholer

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2020, 08:16:33 AM »

Yes, I do use f for both of them, but usually don't get the full value out of it due to mechanical errors. My biggest problem so far is that I don't know when to tank with armor, basically I keep my shields up to long or don't engage due to fearing to take damage.

Question in regards to the ACs, if they are too weak to even disable the bad shields of a sunder, why carry them? Surely the ship cannot rely entirely on sabots to kill destroyers. It can only fire 6.
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Lucky33

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2020, 09:09:33 AM »

Yes, I do use f for both of them, but usually don't get the full value out of it due to mechanical errors. My biggest problem so far is that I don't know when to tank with armor, basically I keep my shields up to long or don't engage due to fearing to take damage.

Question in regards to the ACs, if they are too weak to even disable the bad shields of a sunder, why carry them? Surely the ship cannot rely entirely on sabots to kill destroyers. It can only fire 6.

When guns are purple you dont tank at all because even small burst of the Autopulse will deal too much damage. After that you turn shields on to provoke a Needlers burst and this is what you dont want to take on shields (minus 2400 flux in one go). If you take sabots on armor they will disable all your frontal mounts so you have to bait them out too. Taking even single one on shields is an instant minus 1600 so you have to be carefull. And you absolutely need to disengage since you cant even outvent the Sunder.

Arbalests are good in general but not against this particular Sunder. Light Needlers cost more OP than these medium guns for a good reason such as the ability to unload burst of 15 shots faster than Arbalest makes a single reload. And you can learn Missile Racks to double your missile loadout.
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Rocksummit

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2020, 09:18:31 AM »

Tried the SO Hammerhead vs Sunder, unfortunately there is no skill involved in this 6 second fight.

https://youtu.be/_7AyX74ieIw
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Lucky33

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2020, 09:23:06 AM »

Thats a wrong one.
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TaLaR

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2020, 09:57:36 AM »

Beams Sunder can't do anything vs SO, you simply out-dissipate any soft flux damage. Autopulse Sunder could win under player control, but is obviously vulnerable as AI.
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Broetchenholer

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2020, 11:09:29 AM »

Hey thanks for your helpful video, I just don't have the upgrade you are using. But besides that and the obvious lack of your weapons in my build, that video is really great.
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Plantissue

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2020, 11:24:36 AM »

That's the wrong sim Sunder. You said you had trouble against the autopulse Sunder, so why would you care about the High Intensity Laser Sunder?

You have the Safety Override hullmod at the start of the game.
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Rocksummit

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Re: 'Run Simulation' Question
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2020, 09:50:22 PM »

It doesn't matter if it's against the autopuls Sunder the end result is the same. Just make sure to lower your shield so you don't overload.
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