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Author Topic: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus  (Read 1466 times)

SafariJohn

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Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« on: January 12, 2020, 06:52:00 AM »

The salient features of the Falcon (P) are its speed and missile mounts. An unintended side effect of those is that missile builds can pile on flux capacitors to become ridiculously tough. To counter that, I suggest the OP cost of medium missiles on the Falcon be increased by 10.

Full missile builds would still have their amazing strike power and speed (including EMR and ECCM), but without leaving gunboat and hybrid builds in the dust.
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Igncom1

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2020, 06:57:14 AM »

But that's the whole point of the pirate version, right? If you want a gunboat just use a normal or 14th falcon.

Missiles are the only thing pirates have going for them.
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SafariJohn

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2020, 09:07:08 AM »

A Falcon P gunboat is substantially different from a normal Falcon. For example, here's a build I hastily threw together that would not be directly affected by the proposed nerf:
Spoiler
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And missile builds would still be strong. Here's a pretty standard build simulating the OP cost increase (125-10*4=85):
Spoiler
[close]
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DatonKallandor

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 06:09:17 AM »

I'd rather see a direct OP nerf rather trying to OP nerf but in a more complicated way. And obviously it needs to lose it's built-in mods - Pirate ships are supposed to be worse not a better version of a ship with several story points spent on it for free.
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Cyber Von Cyberus

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2020, 06:36:09 AM »

This nerf sounds a way too harsh, a whole 10 extra op used from every medium missile is ridiculous.
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Plantissue

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2020, 07:14:27 AM »

I don't understand this post. When since was Falcon (P) and its missiles was a problem in the game? I am vaguely aware that the forum has woken up to the missile spam potential of the Falcon (P), but the post seems to have missing information. Did someone post a 120 DP worth of Falcon (P) fleet beating a 700 DP fleet whilst in a normal battle, that sort of thing? Just looking at it, the Falcon (P) should instantly evaporate to a bounty or expedition fleet as it has no anti-fighter capabilities whatsoever.

Even if is was a problem, in any case to suggest paying +10 OP for a medium missile strikes me as ridiculous. Feels very out of place. As if all other options for a nerf was exhausted. If you want to nerf missiles on Falcon (P), you can change some of the medium mounts to small, or simply change them to another mount.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2020, 07:23:23 AM by Plantissue »
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2020, 08:19:11 AM »

One of the big problems with the pirate Falcon is that it goes from the ordinary, unremarkable Falcon to something that can mount nearly as many med missiles as a Legion, or two meds and turreted ballistics, but retains most of the Falcon's good qualities; flux stats are mostly the same, maneuvering jets, good shield.

I'd swap the Composites to the hardpoints at bare minimum, and ideally it would get a serious rebuild - putting a medium Missile hardpoint in the trench, swapping the Composite turrets to Missile, and shrinking the bow hardpoints to small Ballistic is one idea - to be less of a death machine. But simply increasing OP costs wouldn't really solve the problem of how much flux-free damage the Falcon (P) can do. It just flatly needs fewer medium Missile slots. It could even go down to two, and get Fast Missile Racks for a system to keep it scary, but without the current insane, fluxless alpha potential.
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bobucles

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2020, 12:33:40 PM »

I like the medium missile slots. The main issue is that missile mounts are simply more powerful than ballistic or energy mounts. Missile weapons tend to be stronger, cheaper and are critical for turning the tide of battle, and the Pirate Falcon gets 2 nice hull mods (15+24OP) on top of it. Moreso, it gets all these goodies practically for free. These sort of strange ship upgrades place it far apart from the original falcon, and make the pirate version a potent upgrade from the standard military variant.

It's a cool thing and its fun to have, I just didn't expect to see it coming from pirates. Balanced or not, I'd rather see more examples of this kind of super ship mod, rather than less. It seems well suited to the upcoming story point system.
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isyourmojofly

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 09:07:41 AM »

This isn't a problem I've encountered in the campaign. It was only really evident from the Starsector tournament. Let's not balance the game around that, please!
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SafariJohn

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 09:25:13 AM »

This isn't a problem I've encountered in the campaign. It was only really evident from the Starsector tournament. Let's not balance the game around that, please!

This doesn't come from the tournament. It comes from player-piloting in the campaign. A missile-spamming Falcon P flagship is absurdly powerful and DP efficient. The competing ships, Gryphon and Aurora, both cost more DP (i.e. have less fleet support) and have equivalent or inferior missile-power.


But simply increasing OP costs wouldn't really solve the problem of how much flux-free damage the Falcon (P) can do. It just flatly needs fewer medium Missile slots.

You are probably right.
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Plantissue

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 09:51:53 AM »

The competitors as player piloted ships would be Afflictor, Shade and Harbinger. Not saying that Falcon (P) doesn't need a nerf, but it's hardly the most absurdly powerful and DP efficient player ship.
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bobucles

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 11:46:13 AM »

The competitors as player piloted ships would be Afflictor, Shade and Harbinger. Not saying that Falcon (P) doesn't need a nerf, but it's hardly the most absurdly powerful and DP efficient player ship.
Don't forget an honorable mention for the Safety override hammerhead! It definitely has much harsher limitations, but when it shines it cleans house.
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FooF

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 01:10:03 PM »

I've been using a Falcon (P) as a flagship for my latest run and while it is absurdly effective for alphas, I find that it is very lackluster once you fight things that can actually take a Reaper or Harpoon barrage. My current setup is 2x Medium Sabot, Medium Harpoon, Typhoon Launcher, 2x Annihilator and a Hypervelocity Driver on one mount (to LRPD lasers too but w/e).

Sure, it is brutal against Destroyers (it's supposed to be) and can wipe any Frigate instantly (a waste of ammo) but against a bunch of Cruisers or above, I end up having to retreat after the initial volley because the bigger ships have staying power (and I don't!) I'm not saying it's not punching way above its weight class but the Falcon (P) is predicated on ammunition unlike most other ships out there save the Gryphon.

If it needs a nerf, take away the default Expanded Missile Racks so that it becomes an OP-tax to maximize its potential.
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Lucky33

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 08:35:15 PM »

Sabotpod has 9 sec between bursts. Thats heavyac level of op. Typhoon has 15 sec chargedown. Better than heavymortar I guess. But not even in the same universe as the chaingun.

Medium missiles are balanced just fine. Its medium energy mounts what are gimped unless you have a huge dissipation. And since basic Falcon doesnt, its just a "cruiser" with the worse armanent than Hammerhead. Only compared to that, (P) version looks great.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Falcon (P) - Missile Malus
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2020, 09:02:12 PM »

Sabotpod has 9 sec between bursts. Thats heavyac level of op. Typhoon has 15 sec chargedown. Better than heavymortar I guess. But not even in the same universe as the chaingun...

Medium missiles are balanced just fine.

I think you're underestimating instantaneous damage potential. Missiles of those kinds deal IMMENSE amounts of damage in a single burst. Gauging their power from DPS is a red herring.
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