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Author Topic: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability  (Read 1874 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2019, 09:03:15 AM »

I have been on the receiving end of frigate near insta-kills once or twice.  It is annoying, but I am mostly okay with that.  Just need better bullet-hell twitch reflexes.

Nope, a fast frigate with speed-optimized character is simply too fast. You don't have enough acceleration to alter your course enough in available timeframe to avoid running into the mine, it's not a question of reaction timing.
The only option is to slow down before entering mine threat area.

Most AI frigates are not speed-optimized though. And often don't even use their full speed. While generally this is sub-optimal behavior, it helps against the Doom.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 09:35:48 AM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2019, 04:45:40 AM »

Quote
then I think something like preventing the use of mines while phased would make them much harder for a human to use without limiting their potential. I still don’t think current mines are too easy for a player to use, but I could be bad at using them.

That would destroy the point of Doom as it is currently valued (at 35 DP).  Doom is too slow to bypass ship defenses like smaller phase ships can before decloaking to attack.  Doom will take damage (due to phase cooldown and need to get close thanks to inferior shot range) if it cannot use mines to distract the enemy while phased.  It needs the current mines to punch like a capital that it tries to emulate.

I supposed no mines while phased could work if the medium mounts were changed to universals and Doom could kite-and-snipe with HVDs and Maulers.

Mines are not hard to use, but it is not very easy to kill ships with mines alone, unless they are crippled or pinned by other fire support.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2019, 04:51:04 AM by Megas »
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Grievous69

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2019, 05:04:17 AM »

I really don't get the whole "mines unfair to frigates" thing. Look at any other >30 DP ship. For example Aurora, which can also delete smaller ships with ease. They're much different from each other but both feel unfair to small prey. That's their whole point. And lastly Doom is hard countered by swarm and has low peak time in combat due to phase tech.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2019, 05:12:53 AM »

...has low peak time in combat due to phase tech.
Doom is always the first ship I retreat in endgame (Ordos) fights, and the Doom has both Hardened Subsystems and a pilot with Combat Endurance 1.
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Megas

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2019, 05:55:33 AM »

How far can mines be deployed from Doom?  Unless it is several thousand or from beyond fog-of-war, player should see an enemy Doom coming.  Once Doom is spotted, it would make sense to slow down if necessary and possibly deathball the fleet, before the mines start spawning.  Controlling my AI ships (so they do not wander and get picked off by enemy phase ships) is a bigger problem than my Reaper Afflictor flagship (the only frigate I may pilot in a serious fight instead of a battleship or Doom) being too fast.
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Grievous69

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2019, 06:27:27 AM »

No way it's that extreme, I'd say it's about 2000 range, maybe less.
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TaLaR

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2019, 08:33:26 PM »

I really don't get the whole "mines unfair to frigates" thing. Look at any other >30 DP ship. For example Aurora, which can also delete smaller ships with ease. They're much different from each other but both feel unfair to small prey. That's their whole point. And lastly Doom is hard countered by swarm and has low peak time in combat due to phase tech.

Speed-optimized and player-piloted Aurora vs typical AI frigate that doesn't even put proper effort towards running away - sure.
But typical AI Aurora is not fast or committed enough to catch one of faster frigates that doesn't want to be caught.
It's threat level is nowhere near Doom's.
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Grievous69

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2019, 01:16:41 AM »

It's threat level is nowhere near Doom's.
As it shouldn't be? And I said, two different roles. It's the same thing as saying ''oof SO ships really be stronk''. And then an SO ship without shields whose ability can be completely nullified with decent PD. Taking advantage of an distracted ship is disgusting, as is with every other hit and run ship in the game.
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Beep Boop

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2019, 06:36:30 AM »

1st case is when a frigate moves too fast. Frigates have very small exclusion area, and speed-buffed frigate can end up in situation when even perfect
reaction is not fast enough to avoid the mine. Player can manage this by intentionally slowing down around Dooms, but AI ships are *doomed*, lol.
You know, trying to blow up enemy frigates with Doom mines is actually pretty frustrating because the AI has lightning fast reactions, and knows EXACTLY how much he has to dodge to avoid the collision. I usually have to completely box them, otherwise they'll *** ninja-dodge around them. It is really rare indeed that I can nail a frigate without spamming mines, and that's just one tiny *** frigate. I end up having to use like 4 mines to kill one lousy frigate. Even if I do kill one, woo, I killed a Hound, that was going to be a threat to anyone. Frigates chew up way more than their fair share of mines to kill. The only frigates that are seriously threatened by mines are the ones YOU fly, because you probably don't have the reaction times of a 6 year old. And frankly, you probably shouldn't be flying those ships. You can barely even see them and they blow up if anything sneezes on them. Outside of the specialist models, which aren't rushing headlong into battle anyway, you only bring them out for pursuits, they almost always die in pitched battles.

Nope, a fast frigate with speed-optimized character is simply too fast. You don't have enough acceleration to alter your course enough in available timeframe to avoid running into the mine, it's not a question of reaction timing.
You actually DO have enough acceleration, but you need inhuman reflexes. Since the typical human response time is on the order of 100ms+, this is simply inadequate to react to such a threat in time, but an AI pilot totally will ninja dodge that.

Another proposal: mines are forced to remain phase cloaked for 1-2 sec after deployment. This still allows to insta-kill fighters by placing mines ahead of them (no PD fire opportunity, since mine is phased), but allows ships to take defensive actions.
That will actually make mines DEADLIER since now enemies cannot do anything about them.

2nd case is even worse: when friendly fighters move near the ship and run into a freshly spawned mine. Short of raised 360 shield or active phase cloak, nothing can prevent damage in this situation. In fact, friendly carriers will do their best to setup you exactly for this kind of problem with their insistence on using fighter escorts.
Maybe you should mark the opposing Doom for Fighter Attack. That's what I always do, and it tends to keep them out of my hair since the AI doesn't want come out when he's being harassed by fighters.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 06:42:07 AM by Beep Boop »
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Schwartz

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2019, 08:25:45 AM »

Doom has some interesting problem cases. AI is extremely biased with its shield use vs mines, so you can direct AI shield direction by using a single mine, then fire raw HE damage into the ship from the other side. Ships and fighters with a lot of momentum can also give you an instant explosion, which is of course deadly.

But by the time you encounter Dooms on the regular (or field them yourself), these tactics are at least matched by a host of other instant kill tactics and weaponry. They are just different and that is why they are powerful.

As much as I would have expected AI Dooms to be a pain to fight against in my last two playthroughs, they could be beaten and there were very few nasty surprises. You don't send your vulnerable frigates in to deal with those. You handle them like you would other phase ships. Keep them under fighter threat. Wait them out to high flux. Cover your ass. And then you usually destroy a Doom within the timespan of 1-2 forced decloaks / overloads.

One single thing needs to be fixed: AI needs to learn to turn its shield towards a mine only right before it explodes.
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TaLaR

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2019, 06:06:16 AM »

Nope, a fast frigate with speed-optimized character is simply too fast. You don't have enough acceleration to alter your course enough in available timeframe to avoid running into the mine, it's not a question of reaction timing.
You actually DO have enough acceleration, but you need inhuman reflexes. Since the typical human response time is on the order of 100ms+, this is simply inadequate to react to such a threat in time, but an AI pilot totally will ninja dodge that.

I experimented somewhat with that, using SpeedUp mod for bullet time. Character-skilled Afflictor vs infinite mines Doom (not really trying to kill it, just to dodge mines as much as possible while moving at full speed and without using phase cloak).
Even at 0.1 bullet time (which should be good enough to eliminate almost all response time latency), if mine appears right in front of your nose there is nothing you can do to avoid it (except phase cloak, but that's outside excercise rules).

Example:
Doom deploys the final mine at 38 seconds, at 41 it hits. Note that this happens at bullet time 0.1 .
First, that's only 300 milliseconds without bullet time - literally impossible to react to (other than with instant action like phase cloak, which is barely possible).
Second, even if I'm able to react due to bullet time, I can't change trajectory enough to avoid it.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 06:41:20 AM by TaLaR »
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Schwartz

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2019, 07:23:59 AM »

Doom is able to place unavoidable mines if the other ship is small and moving with a lot of momentum. It can also catch fighter swarms with instant mines. But let's not go too far down this rabbit hole of reasoning. A Doom laying mines and catching a fast frigate without chance of escape is not much different than a Dominator with a pair of HAGs taking that same frigate apart (is using phase cloak out of scope of the exercise here too?). Or AI shooting a torpedo that happens to intersect with your drifting frigate without hope of avoidance. It may 'feel wrong' to get killed by inertia. But there are a number of surefire ways to get killed in this game, and most of them are predicated on an earlier tactical blunder on the part of the player or the AI.

With Doom, one important tactic is to be able to either choose the engagement or choose to stay the hell away from it. Mine avoidance, mine baiting, correct use of command points are needed - like they are for almost all dangerous capital ships.

I am actually so thrilled that Doom provides this kind of tactical threat. Not the same as a cap ship, which simply pulverizes anything that gets in its way. Doom is there to be outsmarted, and this is a dimension to the late game that I greatly enjoy.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 07:26:23 AM by Schwartz »
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TaLaR

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2019, 08:12:04 AM »

But Dominator isn't a threat to any frigate at all (well, a SO Dominator might be able to catch slow ones, but that's about it).
Phase cloak is out because the most dangerous moment is decloak, when you are still in cooldown.

If Doom is to stay as is, it needs to massively telegraphed. Like a big red highlight circle around enemy Dooms and Stations showing mine deployment areas, so that you are always aware where exactly mines can be spawned.

Doom itself could also benefit from additional indicators - namely spawn exclusion zone and exact speed vector of target (which is useful for pretty much any ship).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 08:14:03 AM by TaLaR »
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2019, 07:27:41 PM »

Yes, extremely fast frigates without shields or phase can be instantly and unavoidably merked by Doom mines. How is this different from a similar frigate being instantly and unavoidably merked by a Tachyon Lance or a fighter strike? The Tachyon Lance has no travel time and no range indicator, just like the Doom's Mine Strike radius, and it can instantly destroy almost any unshielded unphased frigate with no cost other than a single cooldown cycle, unlike Mine Strike which as you have demonstrated requires a disproportionate amount of Mine Strike charges. Fighter swarms can chase down and kill frigates from 4000 range. Tempests, Omens, Shades, Afflictors, etc., can chase down almost any unshielded frigate in the game and burst or EMP them to death. There are so many ways for a completely defenseless frigate to be destroyed with no opportunity for counterplay in lategame that I don't think it matters that the Doom can do the same. The solution is not to deploy Hounds lategame for anything other than enticing the enemy to waste guided HE missiles trying to hit them. 
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TaLaR

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Re: Nerf Doom mines insta-kill-ability
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2019, 09:39:06 PM »

Because TL or fighters are much easier to predict and avoid?

TL has to aim at your ship, it's not a 360-degree no-scope insta-hit as soon as you approach a TL armed ship. You can see whether a TL is tracking your position, to judge whether it's immediate threat. It also has long enough cooldown to exploit.

Fighters need several seconds to reach you, so they can't even threaten the 2 second cloak cooldown. Fighter swarm is also extremely visible, they can't sneak up on you.

As for amount of charges the Doom used up - it seems to me that AI simply targets ship's center and Mine gets displaced in random direction by exclusion zone OR it simply targets random spot near the ship. Most of the Mines deployed are far behind or to the side, meaning they are non-threats. In other words, bad Mine targeting is AI problem, not Mine problem.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2019, 09:51:42 PM by TaLaR »
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