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Author Topic: The AI is better at command then I am  (Read 3151 times)

reapermonkey

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The AI is better at command then I am
« on: December 18, 2019, 10:45:40 AM »

not a dig at the game just a rant at my own ineptitude.  going up against a bounty for 370k and the target has 1 paragon 2 astrals, 3 dooms and many other decent ships

i have a paragon 3 conquests, a legion and 4 onslaughts and some medium back up.  i get my butt kicked (partly due to ALL my onslaughts sitting out of range and not engaging ANY targets)

after much a save-scumming i finally get it (let the computer do most the fighting as i di not set up any escorts)

then i go after another 350k and as soon as i enter the system ANOTHER big bounty spawns around the same planet just as i engage the first....i attack the first fleet and my piloted  ship gets boomed.  so i sit in the tactile screen and let the computer deal with the rest....no more ships disabled.  then i get hit with the second fleet and i again let the computer do 99% of the commands.  no loses and nearly wiped out the enemy.  i get his AGAIN by the combined remnants of both fleets (more must have escaped then i thought) and again the computer devastated my opponent.

all i did was set a nav point in the middle of the map then  when the enemy fleet was fully engaged i clicked "full assault" thinking my fleet would be destroyed.

so in the end i am just a REALLY bad commander
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goduranus

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2019, 10:29:29 PM »

If you are too old for twitch based games like I am, you can fly a carrier, then the game will be really easy on you.

Plantissue

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 06:11:53 AM »

It would be nice to say what commands you were issuing beforehand, before you can say the AI is better at commanding. As it is you did set up some commands so you really can't say the AI is better at command than you are because you are still setting commands. You simply have changed the way you command.
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reapermonkey

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2019, 11:52:10 AM »

If you are too old for twitch based games like I am, you can fly a carrier, then the game will be really easy on you.

*gets out ear trumpet and put in dentures* eh?  what's that sonny jim? no i don't have any mold on m. why would you want that?
*grabs my paragon plushy and holds it defensibly*  you can take my HammerHeads! But yull neva take ME PARAGONZ!!
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reapermonkey

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 12:04:10 PM »

It would be nice to say what commands you were issuing beforehand, before you can say the AI is better at commanding. As it is you did set up some commands so you really can't say the AI is better at command than you are because you are still setting commands. You simply have changed the way you command.

in the past i have broken up my fleet in to sections based on the capitols i have. the smaller ships and conquests escorting the bigger slower ships like astrals, onslaughts and paragons. setting up nav points for each "command" capitol so that my paragon is in the middle and the onslaughts are on the side.

but the last time i just made everyone escort my paragon and went "CHAAAAARGE!" and every time i gather up a bunch of ships and say "target that one!" the target ship "nopes" out behind the rest of its fleet.....ad all the onslaughts just sit behind my paragon, contemplating the contents of their own bellybuttons. 

so yeah i know its just because i am not that good at playing the combat part of the game yet but any tactical advice would be nice if you have better strategies
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Lucky33

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2019, 12:44:52 PM »

Your fleet just perfectly executed your command. "Escort" means "sit behind and watch my six".

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Zobo

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2019, 12:53:27 PM »

Wish there was a "hold by my side, let's form a line" - command. That behind my ass is really annoying sometimes when I try to get a bit of distance to shed my flux and the escorting ship seems to do it's utmost to foil my plan.
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Lucky33

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2019, 04:57:08 PM »

Dunno, battle lines are forming naturally w/o any special orders.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2019, 06:44:25 PM »

Dunno, battle lines are forming naturally w/o any special orders.
Here is a nice example of a battle line forming naturally without any orders
The only ship I could field was one Cabal Odyssey
As expected, the Sindrian Task Forces took massive losses and literally couldn't damage the NOVAs (yes multiple NOVA)

5 total NOVA and 3 are deployed in the image(1 is not spotted yet and is near the Solar class)
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 06:47:18 PM by Tackywheat1 »
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reapermonkey

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2019, 07:53:36 PM »

being able to set up fleet formations for the initial engagement stage could be nice.  i have changed to only having smaller ships as escorts and using the nav points to guide my big ships to where they are needed
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Lucky33

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2019, 09:52:51 PM »

Dunno, battle lines are forming naturally w/o any special orders.
Here is a nice example of a battle line forming naturally without any orders

Exactly. Thank you.
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ANGRYABOUTELVES

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2019, 01:02:13 AM »

The natural ship AI is very good, and will produce battle line and flanking behaviors on its own. You usually won't have to give it any commands at all, unless you want it to do something weird. If you're new, just focus on learning to pilot your own ship and don't bother giving orders. If you don't know how to correctly fly and position your own ship, you won't be able to give effective orders to your fleet.

Before you start giving orders, you need to know how the command channel works. While you have the tactical overlay open, any order you give will open the command channel for about 10 seconds. Further orders given while the command channel is open will not cost command points. The command channel will close once you close the tactical overlay, or after the time period has elapsed. To get the most use out of your limited command points, you should give orders occasionally and in bulk, then focus on piloting your own ship.

The Full Assault order forces all your ships to Reckless personality, so I'd avoid using it unless you're certain you can win the fight and just want to get it over with. The Escort order will effectively prevent the assigned ship from engaging the same targets as the escorted ship, in favour of covering the escorted ship's flanks and rear. The Eliminate order forces the assigned ships to Reckless personality and to single-mindedly engage the tagged ship until either the assigned ships die, the tagged ship dies, or the Elminate order is canceled. The Avoid order makes sure that your fleet will stay well away from the tagged ship, and is mostly useful for having your fleet avoid a big slow thing it can't kill yet until you've taken out most of the rest of the enemy fleet and can set up a surround. All of these orders are situational, and probably shouldn't be used in every single fight.

Defend orders are used to force your fleet to create a battle line in a specific place, if for some reason you really want to set up in a particular location. Set up 2-5 of these in a row, and your fleet will congregate around them. However, they won't move away from the defend orders if the enemy fleet pulls back, so after the engagement is joined I would recommend disabling these so your battle line can move forward and keep the pressure on. Task force orders will have specific ships move to a specific place, mostly I use these to keep vulnerable carrier ships behind the battle line and away from the enemy, but again they won't move away from the order location if the enemy pulls back, so you have to pay attention and disable the order once the battle line moves.
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Arcagnello

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2019, 01:32:11 AM »

Dunno, battle lines are forming naturally w/o any special orders.
Here is a nice example of a battle line forming naturally without any orders
The only ship I could field was one Cabal Odyssey
As expected, the Sindrian Task Forces took massive losses and literally couldn't damage the NOVAs (yes multiple NOVA)

5 total NOVA and 3 are deployed in the image(1 is not spotted yet and is near the Solar class)


I see you also are a true man of culture using Combat Chatter  ;D

Also, what mod introduces those new Remnant ships? They do seem interesting/intimidating!
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Arranging holidays in an embrace with the Starsector is priceless.
The therapist removed my F5 key.

Plantissue

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2019, 06:24:50 AM »

It would be nice to say what commands you were issuing beforehand, before you can say the AI is better at commanding. As it is you did set up some commands so you really can't say the AI is better at command than you are because you are still setting commands. You simply have changed the way you command.

in the past i have broken up my fleet in to sections based on the capitols i have. the smaller ships and conquests escorting the bigger slower ships like astrals, onslaughts and paragons. setting up nav points for each "command" capitol so that my paragon is in the middle and the onslaughts are on the side.

but the last time i just made everyone escort my paragon and went "CHAAAAARGE!" and every time i gather up a bunch of ships and say "target that one!" the target ship "nopes" out behind the rest of its fleet.....ad all the onslaughts just sit behind my paragon, contemplating the contents of their own bellybuttons. 

so yeah i know its just because i am not that good at playing the combat part of the game yet but any tactical advice would be nice if you have better strategies
As said before, escort means protect, so your Onslaughts are protecting the slow moving Paragon from threats. Of course the ship the Paragon is targeting will retreat, it'll be a bad Ai if it doesn't know to retreat when being taking a paragon's worth of damage.

Nav points are like a broad defend this area from enemy ships order, so they may not do exactly as you think it does. There is no "charge" order. If you want a bunch of ships including the escrorts to target down a ship, it's best to select a group of ships to "eliminate" rather than select the single ship that is being escorted and hope the escorted ships will follow that order, because they will not. You will end up losing the escort order, but if they aren't doing what you want them to do, that doesn't matter. You also need to watch your ships with eliminate order carefully, as they will doggedly try to pursue that ship whilst avoiding damage, if they fail to kill it in good time and tend to will end up in a poor position if you don't cancel the assignment.
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Thaago

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Re: The AI is better at command then I am
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2019, 03:48:57 PM »

I don't think 'Full Assault' actually goes all the way to 'Reckless'. It boosts aggression for sure, but there are particular behaviors of the reckless personality that it doesn't do (ignoring enemy ship positions for threat calculation is the big one).

That said, a single Full Assault can be the order that wins you a battle, or it can be an order that loses you the battle. If your side will benefit from being more aggressive - taking a bit of damage to get kills, firing missiles more freely, engaging the enemy at deeper flux levels - then its absolutely fantastic. The AI is naturally cautious: it prioritizes not dying over all else, to the point where it can enter a stalemate because its not 'sure' it can win - and then because it keeps letting the enemy get away to vent, it ends up taking both more time AND more damage. And it allows AI reinforcements to arrive. The AI also doesn't reaaaallly understand coordinated attacks with allies. It will do it somewhat with flanking and will naturally attack high flux targets, so if one ally manages to push the enemy the others will try and swarm in. But again, the AI is cautious, so no individual ship will expose itself to give the pack a chance to attack (without high aggression personalities).

The key to using aggression booster commands like eliminate or full assault is to ask yourself: if my ships push now, will they do well or poorly? Then, keep an eye on the outcome by checking the tactical map often. If things don't go so well, cancel the order.

One concrete tip: if you see a ship of yours engaged in a "1v1" against an opponent that it can catch and is more powerful than (like a 5 D mod hound/kite), give it an eliminate order on the target. This comes up relatively often when fighting weak enemies like pirates, even when outnumbered: your ships naturally disperse and by luck it ends up being a 1v1. You want that fight to end as fast as possible so that your ship can come back and help everyone else!
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