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Author Topic: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run  (Read 6100 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2019, 11:42:08 AM »

That might just be because the sim eagle loadout is super bad (although the aurora walks straight through sabot spam from the eagle and still wins with no hull damage, so it seems like its just stronger), but the sim aurora loadout is also kinda bad, so it's hard to test. Regardless, saying it loses a duel to the eagle is definitely not correct.

Exactly, sim Eagle has horrible loadout. Proper build is along the lines of: 3xGrav + 3XLRPD + 2xHNeedler + HMauler + HardShields + ITU + Vents. Against that Aurora generally loses or gets a stalemate. It may gain some ground initially, but as it loses armor Aurora becomes more timid, which leads to Eagle's victory.

Significant part of reason why, is that Aurora often bugs it's system use (hovers at wrong distance, not using it's full speed to either get closer or retreat). If not for that, AI Aurora could have been close in it's actual worth to declared 30 DP.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 11:44:05 AM by TaLaR »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2019, 12:16:49 PM »

How do you test that? The sim aurora is also not very good, so it's hardly a good comparison to throw an optimized eagle loadout against the sim aurora and then say the eagle is better in a duel.

I think if you put the fleet AI on aggressive or reckless, the aurora would also not have the approach issues. I've become less and less a fan of steady AI. I think cautious or aggressive both have better performance because you know what you're getting and you can build around it. Steady just kinda fails to do anything very well.
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TaLaR

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2019, 12:20:31 PM »

I have a minimod that adds some variants I made to simulator. So it's optimized vs optimized.

Giving Aurora 'Eliminate' command doesn't help much. As far as I understand it should roughly equivalent to Aggressive/Reckless stance, at least for 1v1. But yes, in general an Aggressive Aurora is less useless than a Steady one.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2019, 09:34:22 PM »

I'm a bit surprised that you couldn't get the aurora to be super aggressive because the aurora I tested took sabot hits up to like 80%+ flux capacity and kept pushing in for the kill. Not sure why it wouldn't do that in other cases. Since I can't test things myself, what are your aurora builds?

 I did discover some weird stuff with a paragon where having burst PD in the forward medium slots caused the AI to refuse to vent and die slowly to annihilator spam, while having gravitons in those slots resulted in it face-tank venting and winning easily. No idea why that one change completely changed the behavior of the ship. It was consistent across multiple tests too. There could be some weird AI stuff going on with the aurora as well.
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TaLaR

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2019, 11:16:24 PM »

Standard sim Eagle is too weak as opponent. Against that an AI Aurora can win. But once you throw it against optimized Eagle - not so much.
As I know from piloting Aurora in this scenario myself, it needs to armor tank Needlers and pick moments to vent in the enemy face to win. AI doesn't know how to do that - it simply sees that it gets too much flux during approach and gives up. Even if it somehow approaches for a short while, it is quickly rebuffed (because it's shield tanking everything).
It's also pity that AI Aurora can't use Gravitons (mistakes them for actual weapons rather than flux debuff they are, and tries to fight from afar).

Both videos are with Eliminate order.

vs optimized Eagle (cut short because it went nowhere)

vs sim Eagle (takes some unnecessary damage, but at least Aurora wins)
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2019, 10:34:31 AM »

Does that aurora have two heavy blasters, a pulse laser and ir pulse lasers too? That a loooooot of flux. Can you try
Spoiler

and

Honestly, you can probably get rid of the PD and add more caps. Or you could add a second anti-matter blaster. Caps are probably better though.
[close]

Or tell me how to add my own variants in the sim :)
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Thaago

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2019, 10:42:46 AM »

: sobs : Why build an Aurora without missiles?
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2019, 10:59:04 AM »

: sobs : Why build an Aurora without missiles?
Yeah I normally wouldn't, but that's the challenge: to build a missile-less non-SO aurora that kills a good eagle.

this:
Spoiler
[close]
is my normal build (laughs in 48 sabots)
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TaLaR

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2019, 11:28:41 AM »

Does that aurora have two heavy blasters, a pulse laser and ir pulse lasers too? That a loooooot of flux. Can you try
Spoiler

and

Honestly, you can probably get rid of the PD and add more caps. Or you could add a second anti-matter blaster. Caps are probably better though.
[close]

Both lose as usual. Reaper + Sabots variant wins though (at that cost it'd better win).

Or tell me how to add my own variants in the sim :)

Quite simple:
1) create an empty mod with mod_info.json (just copy from any mod and edit it)
2) copy variant files to /data/variants in your mod and edit their "variantId" to something sensible in process (for example 'Medusa_SO' instead of 'mission_hornetsnest_ship_0'). It's convenient to edit variants in missions and copy from mission saves.
3) add your variantIds to /data/campaign/sim_opponents.csv  (check format in core game files)

That's all.
I already uploaded my version in other topic, so you could start with that.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2019, 04:04:11 PM »


Quite simple:
1) create an empty mod with mod_info.json (just copy from any mod and edit it)
2) copy variant files to /data/variants in your mod and edit their "variantId" to something sensible in process (for example 'Medusa_SO' instead of 'mission_hornetsnest_ship_0'). It's convenient to edit variants in missions and copy from mission saves.
3) add your variantIds to /data/campaign/sim_opponents.csv  (check format in core game files)

That's all.
I already uploaded my version in other topic, so you could start with that.
Awesome, thanks!

I was able to find some Aurora builds that can kill your eagle consistently. A bunch of variants of this will do it:
Spoiler
[close]


I did find some interesting stuff. AI range management could use some work. There are times where it seemed like the aurora would hover juuust out of range of its hard flux but still in range of the enemies weapons which seemed silly (this was with an eliminate order too). It should either commit to fighting or back off to beam range. Maybe there is some bug with it thinking it is range when not in range? It also would sometimes let the enemy out of beam range when it didn't have to (system on cool down, not moving at full speed but still lets the enemy back off) which was frustrating when I tried a full beam build.

The variant I posted works best, but a pulse laser would also work and full beams would work too. The full beam variant keeps letting the enemy out of range until it corners it. Once that happens, it kills pretty quickly (3x grav + 7x tac is like 825 dps vs hull). The pulse laser variant seemed to have the most problems with range management . I also notices that the ship would turn at very inconvenient times (often right when the enemy vents for some reasons). The turning often caused projectiles to miss at key times which is why the heavy blaster is in the turret with advanced turret gyros. The turning thing is a pretty big issue, it happens a lot.
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Flare

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2019, 08:01:38 PM »

The falcon P basically dominated the 7th fleet building tournament. 4 medium missile slots on a very fast chassis is nothing to sneeze at.
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Quote from: Thana
Quote from: Alex

The battle station is not completely operational, shall we say.

"Now witness the firepower of this thoroughly buggy and unoperational batt... Oh, hell, you know what? Just ignore the battle station, okay?"

TaLaR

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2019, 11:36:22 PM »

@intrinsic_parity

Your build seems to be really dependent on thin margins. I suspect you tested it with 85% CR and minor fleetwides (+3% range from ECM, at least). In mission with 70% it's not quite consistent, but can get the kill.

Yeah, range management errors are especially obvious with Aurora when it activates Plasma Jets and hovers in place, not using it's full speed. Or chooses not to active Jets despite being shot one-sidedly.
And of course it doesn't 'stick' to target in a way a player-piloted dedicated beam build would.

Unnecessary turning hurts too, it's complete horror show with Phase Lances on a Tempest. Not even Advanced Gyros can compensate quite enough.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2019, 10:49:45 AM »

I thiiiink I was using 70% CR, at least some of the time (I quit the game a few times and then went back to test or change something so I wasn't consistent with that), but yeah I couldn't get rid of the ecm bonus in the campaign. I think the full beam variant (all gravitons and tac lasers and also replace some caps/vents with advanced optics) wouldn't ever lose explicitly since eventually it would back the eagle into a corner somewhere and beam it to death. It actually doesn't take that long to kill with 7 tac lasers once you stop letting the enemy out of range, but it was slow enough that it was annoying to test.

I remember seeing someone saying they did a full beam fleet with HIL sunders and beam auroras, and I can really see how that would be very effective now. I might try that in my next campaign.
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Goumindong

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2019, 09:03:22 PM »

These Aurora are still inefficient. Flux distributor is 12 OP for 90 dissipation. Shield conversion-front, even after stabalized shields gives 100 effective dissipation for 10.

Edit: probably worth having both for max flux. Especially over RFC when the aurora is not likely to combat vent anyway
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 09:12:18 PM by Goumindong »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Thoughts and Stuff from my Recent Run
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2019, 10:45:45 PM »

I would add front shields but it messes with the AI, it leaves shields up instead of flickering them a lot of the time and it also sometimes takes damage when it drops shields and turns that it would have blocked with an omni shield. It seemed to me like losses because of that were offsetting the extra dissipation but it's definitely close. RFC was more about trying the get the AI to be willing to approach and also vent. A lot of the time, the AI will sit back and not push into heavy blaster range, and it also has an annoying behavior where it backs off but doesn't vent and then re-engages with some hard flux still. I kinda hoped RFC would help with that behavior, but I'm not sure it actually does. The loadout is really about making the AI effective rather than being as strong as possible. TBH, switching between RFC, front shield and just an extra couple caps, the performance seems the same on average. Differences in performance are mostly because of variance in AI behavior rather than the details of the loadout.
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