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[sqrt(-1)]

It would be great to reflect the high value and economic significance of Nanoforges and Synchrotron Cores by the requirement to tow them (via Ox ships). This would also increase the believability compared to their current low storage capacity requirement.

The towing should require a partial powering of those units, causing the emission of a EM signature that will be picked up by pirates or hostile factions, who then attack.

While I find their current market value inflated, their value could be even increased with this gameplay addition.

[Hrothgar]

I think that nanoforge and synchotron requiring a special ship to load them would be better option than this.

[Megas]

It would be another ship (slot) tax, not fun.

[Hrothgar]

Well , you would now use Tug , which is a waste of slot if you need every ship avaliable anyway.

[bobucles]

Don't both items occupy a single unit of cargo space? That's a lot of value for one inventory unit. I wouldn't be opposed to making such amazing items larger for the sake of larger, but the only thing that changes is how many millions of credits you can stuff into a single kite.

Tugs are more than useful enough as is. Speed is critically important for fleets, and Tug ships give that.

[sqrt(-1)]

It would be another ship (slot) tax, not fun.

How is it not fun to add a genuine combat and logistics challenge when trying to acquire the most valuable items in the mid game?
And in addition to that, it is objectively very immersion breaking that gigantic ship construction machinery can be stored away inside of ships it is supposed to be constructing.

Contrary to your well known opinion, end game mass battles void of any challenges are objectively the least fun part of the game.
You have an extremely consistent posting history of portraying any suggestions as terrible just because they interfere with your very narrow vision of Paragon spamming.

[Cyber Von Cyberus]

I don't see how that's fun at all. The purpose of the ox is to sacrifice sensor profile to increase burn speed for large fleets. Having to abandon and lose a nanoforge just because you didn't have an ox with you (which isn't a viable ship for early game seeing that it massively increases sensor profile for fleet that is already quick enough and is somewhat uncommon to find on the market). Now pirates demanding high value cargo when they catch you is something interesting.

[Alex]

It would be great to reflect the high value and economic significance of Nanoforges and Synchrotron Cores by the requirement to tow them (via Ox ships). This would also increase the believability compared to their current low storage capacity requirement.

The towing should require a partial powering of those units, causing the emission of a EM signature that will be picked up by pirates or hostile factions, who then attack.

While I find their current market value inflated, their value could be even increased with this gameplay addition.

Hmm. Conceptually, the nanoforge/synchrotron/anything else that will come up that's in a similar vein - are the *core* of an industry, not the entire thing. E.G. once a Nanoforge is available to a heavy industry, the next thing that happens is it's fed some instructions and lots of raw materials, and - with human assistance - it's built out to the actual scale that's required for it to function, probably with hubs all over the entire industrial sector on that colony, and so on.

So the nanoforge item itself is... sort of like a seed, if you want to think of it that way. It's got the minimal set of data and capability to become something larger, but it's not going to be churning ships out by itself. IIRC the description mentions this, though not in so many words.

(The general idea of having the nanoforge (or other items) attract trouble is, I think, good! The specifics here give me pause - I'm not sure this would really work smoothly. Mainly, though, I really wanted to chime in on the in-fiction aspects of this )

[Megas]

Contrary to your well known opinion, end game mass battles void of any challenges are objectively the least fun part of the game.
You have an extremely consistent posting history of portraying any suggestions as terrible just because they interfere with your very narrow vision of Paragon spamming.

More accurate would be popular opinion, but it is not objective.  I think endgame fights are the most fun part of the game for me.  Endgame is most fun for me because my fleet is at my strongest and can crush whatever enemies annoy me.  As for Paragon spamming, I only started that for a brief while before I stopped playing altogether, because a babysitting simulator (where there is no way to stop pirates, and no way to make factions stop harassing me short of annihilating them, only for more zombie pirates to take their place) is not fun, and I have other games that need my attention.

I still do not think bringing a specialized ship just in case a special item falls in your lap is a good idea.  That means player needs to have the ship in his fleet at all times if he wants to be prepared.  In case of Ox, it is not just the sensor penalties, but it is also a fuel hog early.  I do not want to bring an Ox in my fleet until I start hauling capitals around that need them, due to fuel use.  Once I have capitals, then Ox's fuel use is somewhat minor in comparison.

Also, what happens if I steal that item from an Industry?  Eventually, I want to steal those items from capital worlds to cripple their expeditions.  I should not need a special ship beyond one with enough cargo capacity (and personnel to haul all of the marines I need to raid the base).

[sqrt(-1)]

I don't see how that's fun at all. The purpose of the ox is to sacrifice sensor profile to increase burn speed for large fleets. Having to abandon and lose a nanoforge just because you didn't have an ox with you.

Why do you presume that you would lose it? Have you never noticed that cargo can be put into a stable orbit?
The requirement to use an Ox is fun because:

• It eliminates the immersion breaking absurdity that gigantic ship building machinery is transported inside the ships that it builds.
• Satisfies the gameplay design principle of increased resource expenditure for larger rewards.
• Increases the viable threat scale of the proposed high value salvage attack mechanic due to the potentially required fleet preparation with a return trip.

(which isn't a viable ship for early game seeing that it massively increases sensor profile for fleet that is already quick enough and is somewhat uncommon to find on the market).

Nanoforges and Synchrotron Cores should be mid-game! The increased sensor profile is a good thing because it adds to the challenge! Why do you insist on transporting the most valuable and most gigantic items in game without any challenges?

Now pirates demanding high value cargo when they catch you is something interesting.

That's very dull compared to making the salvaging and use of the most valuable items in game a unique gameplay experience by means of salvage specific attack fleets.

[sqrt(-1)]

Hmm. Conceptually, the nanoforge/synchrotron/anything else that will come up that's in a similar vein - are the *core* of an industry, not the entire thing. E.G. once a Nanoforge is available to a heavy industry, the next thing that happens is it's fed some instructions and lots of raw materials, and - with human assistance - it's built out to the actual scale that's required for it to function, probably with hubs all over the entire industrial sector on that colony, and so on.

So the nanoforge item itself is... sort of like a seed, if you want to think of it that way. It's got the minimal set of data and capability to become something larger, but it's not going to be churning ships out by itself. IIRC the description mentions this, though not in so many words.

(The general idea of having the nanoforge (or other items) attract trouble is, I think, good! The specifics here give me pause - I'm not sure this would really work smoothly. Mainly, though, I really wanted to chime in on the in-fiction aspects of this )

Alright. But I still think that it would be much more logical and immersive if those items were gigantic in comparison to the largest cargo hold of a ship.

[Megas]

If there needs to be a special ship for this, Salvage Rig would probably be a better idea.  At least Ox tugs are almost must-have to keep burn 20 by the time player can support several capitals and afford tons of fuel.  Ox are a staple for late-game and beyond.  Salvage Rigs, I see no reason to bring them ever.  If I really need more vendor trash loot, I bring more Shepherds.

Increases the viable threat scale of the proposed high value salvage attack mechanic due to the potentially required fleet preparation with a return trip.

If anything, Ox would decrease the threat scale because your fleet is faster and can outrun more things.

The most fun thing about Ox is two or four of them enables a fleet full of capitals to fly at burn 20.

Nanoforges and Synchrotron Cores should be mid-game!

They already are, unless player gets a lucky drop early in the game.  Player already takes a risk when exploring.  Just because he did not get ambushed does not mean he did not risk getting ganked by hostiles.  He took a gamble, and got lucky... of finding something great (instead of minor junk or nothing) and/or not getting ganked either way.

[bobucles]

It eliminates the immersion breaking absurdity that gigantic ship building machinery is transported inside the ships that it builds.

But is it a gigantic ship building machine? I like to think of the nanoforge as more like the Commanders from Total Annihilation. They're not individually gigantic by any measure, but what they do have is an ability to spread out and produce a full scale industrial complex from a single master unit. Building and maintaining the complex, both from macroscopic and microscopic decay, is part of the incredible capabilities of the forge. Pull the forge out and the machines start breaking down, or they go full grey goo apocalypse, that's always fun too.

A nanoforge might qualify as a high level AI. The only difference is it has no capacity for investigating or solving human themed problems or for real innovation. All it does is make good machines and make machines good. Input blueprints, receive factory complex. That sort of thing.

[Cyber Von Cyberus]

I don't see how that's fun at all. The purpose of the ox is to sacrifice sensor profile to increase burn speed for large fleets. Having to abandon and lose a nanoforge just because you didn't have an ox with you.

Why do you presume that you would lose it? Have you never noticed that cargo can be put into a stable orbit?
The requirement to use an Ox is fun because:

• It eliminates the immersion breaking absurdity that gigantic ship building machinery is transported inside the ships that it builds.
• Satisfies the gameplay design principle of increased resource expenditure for larger rewards.
• Increases the viable threat scale of the proposed high value salvage attack mechanic due to the potentially required fleet preparation with a return trip.

(which isn't a viable ship for early game seeing that it massively increases sensor profile for fleet that is already quick enough and is somewhat uncommon to find on the market).

Nanoforges and Synchrotron Cores should be mid-game! The increased sensor profile is a good thing because it adds to the challenge! Why do you insist on transporting the most valuable and most gigantic items in game without any challenges?

Now pirates demanding high value cargo when they catch you is something interesting.

That's very dull compared to making the salvaging and use of the most valuable items in game a unique gameplay experience by means of salvage specific attack fleets.

Yes, cargo can be put into stable orbit.... for a month, I hope you got a notebook and a pen on you while playing because your going to need them with that.

Also, having this item being only available for haul by a single ship is just plain stupid, Oxen are extremely fuel hungry and not a viable option for a small exploration fleet, they also are somewhat uncommon on the market which means you wouldn't consider exploring ruins and looting research/mining stations in the early game at all for fear of loosing a limited and valuable item. Even if we made it so it required a salvage rig instead of an Ox, that's still a terrible idea because we're restricting that item to a single ship.

Also Oxen increase the burn speed of the fleet. So if I had 5 of them all the time because I didn't want to miss out on any forges/cores then I'd be impervious to any threat because I'm constantly at burn level 20 with all of these tugs which completely defeats your point of wanting an extra challenge, it's just making me have less fuel efficiency so I'll be constantly making trips back to refuel which isn't fun.

Also how do you know that nanoforges are gigantic ship sized machines ? Clearly many colonies can build ships without the use of forges albeit with defects, so the forge isn't some magical ship 3d printer that poops out an entire paragon just by shoving metals and transplutonics from the other side, it just builds the more complex component so that they can be put together by the rest of the factory.

As for synchontron cores they don't need to be ship sized, they're just super advanced antimatter refinement tanks, if you want them to cost more cargo space then I think that's logical, but requiring a specific ship to be carried is just not a fun concept.

And finally making it so scavengers and pirates are more agressive if you carry such valuable cargo isn't a bad idea, but forcing us to use tugs to carry that cargo defeats the whole purpose.

[Megas]

If I had to guess how big the nanoforge/synchrotron is, I would imagine anywhere from the size of your desktop computer to a mainframe as big as a room.  Something like a blueprint (which I consider more valuable than spare nanoforges) would be something like an old game console cartridge (for Atari 2600 or NES).

P.S.  Thinking more about it, there is the one illustration of a missing alpha core (at the end of the December 2017 blog about Colony Management), which I estimate to be about as big as a grown man, or a bit smaller.  Without that, I probably would have guessed AI cores being like crystal balls with Tron lines.  I would imagine other bulky special items (nanoforge or synchrotron) to be similar to AI cores.