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[TaLaR]

Speed is what makes phase frigates good, losing that will kill them. Phase frigates can bypass omni-shields just by proper maneuvering. Harbinger needs to rely on slowly recharging system to do what frigates get for free, without it's system it would be useless.
While Shade is a lot worse than Afflictor (Shade's system is useless for shield bypass combat style and flux stats are worse), it's still a better ship than Harbinger.

Phase PPT isn't that much of a problem either. The real question is - how many seconds of CR time does it take to kill the enemy? 3 AM phase frigate can kill single frigate/low armor DE every 10 seconds (well, let's say 15 to account for some travel time). Taking enemy carriers right in the back of enemy fleet spares quite a lot of time compared to fighting your way to them more traditional way.

[bobucles]

Speed is what makes phase frigates good, losing that will kill them.

The afflictor is hardly a frigate, given the sheer burst damage it can put forth. The main speed bonus comes from Phase Cloak's triple-time, which also burns PPT 3 times as fast. High base speed mostly matters because the PPT time is so dang short. Travel time is no joke and the ship needs as much movement as possible or it'll simply burn out while crossing the distance. That's why I don't feel bad about matching a slower speed with higher PPT. All it does slow down the overall pace of the ship, but you don't lose anything because the Shade already exists for the faster role.

The Shade is a much weaker ship to fly, which is surprising because it costs the same fleet points to deploy. It fights about as well as a frigate should, which is to say, there's a point where it's a good idea to stop using frigates.

3 AM phase frigate can kill single frigate/low armor DE every 10 seconds (well, let's say 15 to account for some travel time).

Is that speaking from experience or is it pure theorycraft? Personally, I can pop maybe 3-5 frigates and  1-2 larger ships before running out of PPT, with half of my antimatter blasters remaining. I'm certainly no pro, but it doesn't take a lot of combat talents to get good results. It may be a phase ship but you can't throw them in the thick of action, Afflictors are made out of glass. The AI is not anywhere near as effective.

[TaLaR]

Speed is what makes phase frigates good, losing that will kill them.

The afflictor is hardly a frigate, given the sheer burst damage it can put forth. The main speed bonus comes from Phase Cloak's triple-time, which also burns PPT 3 times as fast. High base speed mostly matters because the PPT time is so dang short. Travel time is no joke and the ship needs as much movement as possible or it'll simply burn out while crossing the distance. That's why I don't feel bad about matching a slower speed with higher PPT. All it does slow down the overall pace of the ship, but you don't lose anything because the Shade already exists for the faster role.

The Shade is a much weaker ship to fly, which is surprising because it costs the same fleet points to deploy. It fights about as well as a frigate should, which is to say, there's a point where it's a good idea to stop using frigates.

3 AM phase frigate can kill single frigate/low armor DE every 10 seconds (well, let's say 15 to account for some travel time).

Is that speaking from experience or is it pure theorycraft? Personally, I can pop maybe 3-5 frigates and  1-2 larger ships before running out of PPT, with half of my antimatter blasters remaining. I'm certainly no pro, but it doesn't take a lot of combat talents to get good results. It may be a phase ship but you can't throw them in the thick of action, Afflictors are made out of glass. The AI is not anywhere near as effective.

Shade isn't that different from Afflictor. It can pop Medusa in one salvo all the same. Far worse than Afflictor, but just being a AM-capable phase frigate makes it the 2nd deadliest frigate overall.


Well, I didn't measure exactly, but using up all 20 shots with a skilled character + Hardened Systems Afflictor by the time I run out of PPT or slightly after is common enough. I do typically take some damage, but so what? AM is ammo based, so it can't be used for multi-round combat anyway. There is no need to return Afflictor scratch-less, using up most armor and some hp is fine if it allowed you to kill enemies faster.

AI can't pilot it in a way worth calling such. You'd get better results (but still very bad) from equipping AI Afflictor with LAGs than AMs.

[Lucky33]

You can't just eliminate a ship from existing because another is better at it's job.

And phase ships are cheating with their damage because their defence consists entire of dodge or die. For the two minutes they can even operate for.

It's a good brick, for a destroyer.

I dont. I acknowledge Enforcer as an early game fighter defence ship. Since its brickness works only against small arms fire but works very well. The problem is buffing it into some dive torpedo bomber as was suggested.

"Effective" meaning good enough to kill early-game pirates and pirate bases long enough until player earns enough money to buy superior ships or build his first colony, or collect enough junk ships to kill a bigger fleet (like that very first expedition from a major faction) and steal their cruisers, then use those junk cruisers to steal a capital.

I do not remember stealing Hammerhead hulls from pirates.  Sure, it would be great to steal superior hulls from pirates if I cannot easily buy good ships at will, but pirates that are beatable with a starter fleet use Enforcers, Mules, and Shrike (P).

Honestly even with complete removal of missile slots it still will be brocken thanks to its damage amplifier.

Because the other options may not one-shot big things in a single salvo, except maybe four AM Blasters, whose range is short enough to be maybe within the blast radius of an exploding capital.  Also, Reapers are great for Quake1 rocket launcher-style splash kills against battlestation segments.  Fire boosted Reapers at the wall behind the module, and the module will still be destroyed.  Conventional weapons cannot do that.

Harbinger with phase lances or AM blasters is kind of underwhelming even with Quantum Disruptor.  It was too powerful with Reapers.  With phase lance/AM Blasters, Harbinger is a decent small ship sweeper.  I would not use it instead of four Reaper Afflictor against a cruiser, capital, or battlestation.  Quantum Disruptor is generally more cheesy than Entropy Amplifier.  If Afflictor lost all of its missile slots, I would not use it at all, except as an improvised phase hauler (for marines or loot) when I raid Culann for blueprints with a pure phase fleet.

The very early game you better buy/restore Lasher and you are golden. After that you have the money to buy Hammerhead or you can do the piracy by going to the hyperspace near Askonia and waiting for the some small enough fleet containing a ship you want.

Yes, the idea that phase ships should be quantum leap ahead of everything has bitten back nowdays when small ships are no longer allowed to solo whole fleets. And for some obscure reason they cannot be balanced into normal ships with a twist.

Nah... Take two Herons and wait for it. Press F. And altogether its still cheaper than Astral.

[Plantissue]

Speed is what makes phase frigates good, losing that will kill them.

The afflictor is hardly a frigate, given the sheer burst damage it can put forth. The main speed bonus comes from Phase Cloak's triple-time, which also burns PPT 3 times as fast. High base speed mostly matters because the PPT time is so dang short. Travel time is no joke and the ship needs as much movement as possible or it'll simply burn out while crossing the distance. That's why I don't feel bad about matching a slower speed with higher PPT. All it does slow down the overall pace of the ship, but you don't lose anything because the Shade already exists for the faster role.

The Shade is a much weaker ship to fly, which is surprising because it costs the same fleet points to deploy. It fights about as well as a frigate should, which is to say, there's a point where it's a good idea to stop using frigates.

3 AM phase frigate can kill single frigate/low armor DE every 10 seconds (well, let's say 15 to account for some travel time).

Is that speaking from experience or is it pure theorycraft? Personally, I can pop maybe 3-5 frigates and  1-2 larger ships before running out of PPT, with half of my antimatter blasters remaining. I'm certainly no pro, but it doesn't take a lot of combat talents to get good results. It may be a phase ship but you can't throw them in the thick of action, Afflictors are made out of glass. The AI is not anywhere near as effective.

Shade isn't that different from Afflictor. It can pop Medusa in one salvo all the same.

How? Wouldn't the Medusa just phase skim away from any missiles you shoot, Afflictor or Shade? You cannot fire enough AM Blasters to even break the shield of a minimal capacitor Medusa. Anyhow, I agree with what you are saying. The Afflictor might have better overall stats and weapon layout, but being second best to the Afflictor still means the Shade is an excellent phase ship. If I wanted an Afflictor, a Shade is nearly the same in role and use. I don't see the need to have three Antimatter Blasters either, 2 is sufficient and safer in most cases. Even after Peak performance Time runs out, you still have 1-2 minutes where you can still use the phase frigate, skills depending.

I once tried using Afflictor and Shades as a main combat ship. Afflictor is a great support ship in that they can nearly permanently apply Entropy Amplifier effect to a ship. It has suprisingly massive range to apply, though theoretically it's +50% damage effect is only really worth it if at least 40 DP worth of ships is shooting at that target. Best result I've had as a fleet ship, is to equip it with a pair of railguns and Light Assault Guns (or even 4 railguns), and it performs does passably.

One day Megas will try explaining his thoughts without outdated gaming analogies. Just say dodge or splash or area damage; these are common gaming terms across a wide spectrum of genres that everybody will understand without having to understand the mechanics of that specific game.

[TaLaR]

How? Wouldn't the Medusa just phase skim away from any missiles you shoot, Afflictor or Shade? You cannot fire enough AM Blasters to even break the shield of a minimal capacitor Medusa. Anyhow, I agree with what you are saying. The Afflictor might have better overall stats and weapon layout, but being second best to the Afflictor still means the Shade is an excellent phase ship. If I wanted an Afflictor, a Shade is nearly the same in role and use. I don't see the need to have three Antimatter Blasters either, 2 is sufficient and safer in most cases. Even after Peak performance Time runs out, you still have 1-2 minutes where you can still use the phase frigate, skills depending.

I once tried using Afflictor and Shades as a main combat ship. Afflictor is a great support ship in that they can nearly permanently apply Entropy Amplifier effect to a ship. It has suprisingly massive range to apply, though theoretically it's +50% damage effect is only really worth it if at least 40 DP worth of ships is shooting at that target. Best result I've had as a fleet ship, is to equip it with a pair of railguns and Light Assault Guns (or even 4 railguns), and it performs does passably.

One day Megas will try explaining his thoughts without outdated gaming analogies. Just say dodge or splash or area damage; these are common gaming terms across a wide spectrum of genres that everybody will understand without having to understand the mechanics of that specific game.

You never fire at shields with AM phase frigates, you bypass shields. So it doesn't matter how good is Medusa's shield. What matters is that it's armor is crap and it doesn't have Damper Field or alike system (which AI would actually use). Skimmer could in theory save a Medusa, but AI doesn't use it as reactive dodge, so no such thing actually happens.

Here, a short video on it (yes, it's Afflictor and not vs Medusa in particular, but shield bypass works the same for both phase frigates vs any omni shielded target, Afflictor is just better at it due to system and higher flux stats). Note about 200 sec PPT left after fight - this fleet was actually too small to demo full extent of max skills Afflictor's abilities.

Spoiler

[close]

EDIT: ok, Shade vs Medusa one-shot. This is harder, because it's done skill-less with only 3x cloak, and the smaller the target ship is, the faster it's shield rotates (Medusa is smaller than carriers from previous video).

Spoiler

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[Plantissue]

You don't need to post a video. Simply saying you shoot where the shield is not, is enough. Of course that would require a hell of a lot more maneouvering around, especially if you want to escape beyond beam range of capital ship range, so you would not be able to expend all 20 AM Blaster shots before the end of PPT. Since you was talking about using up all 20 shots, I naturally assumed you was just front shooting, but I suppose using up 20 shots and being able to kill a medusa in one shot was intended to be separate.

[TaLaR]

Well, each approach/retreat involving a TL Paragon is going to cost quite a lot extra time, sure. Aligning shots on 20 Medusas may take more time as well (not necessarily that much more, you can begin aligning shot before you finish reloading). But most enemy fleets aren't like that, so spending all 20 shots against typical fleet is very much possible.

[Plantissue]

I am assuming a normal battle with a mix of large number of different ships. Since Medusa are so rare, I am assuming you will only find them in a very large Tri-Tachyon fleet. Who has ever heard of a 20 medusa ship fleet? I am also generously assuming there are no fighters following your phase ship around either. You wouldn't have enough PPT to get out of range, dephase and vent, then reenter range dephas, shoot, and repeat 20 times assuming no skills. In any case shooting with 3 AM Blasters shouldn't leave you any flux to do any of these safely, especially not with a Shade.

[TaLaR]

I am assuming a normal battle with a mix of large number of different ships. Since Medusa are so rare, I am assuming you will only find them in a very large Tri-Tachyon fleet. Who has ever heard of a 20 medusa ship fleet? I am also generously assuming there are no fighters following your phase ship around either. You wouldn't have enough PPT to get out of range, dephase and vent, then reenter range dephas, shoot, and repeat 20 times assuming no skills. In any case shooting with 3 AM Blasters shouldn't leave you any flux to do any of these safely, especially not with a Shade.

Fighters can't stop player piloted Afflictor. You just herd fighters away and go straight for most exposed carriers on opposite side of fighter cloud. Above 800 effective speed with character skills and 4x cloak is no joke, no fighters go faster than half that. The only carrier which can pose some problems is Mora due to AI being able to use Damper Field as reaction save.

Afflictor with Hardened Systems and Combat endurance has above 300 sec PPT, you need only 200 to just fire all 20 shots, there is some extra for positioning. You don't have to exactly fit PPT either, if you really need to finish few more targets at extra CR cost. Don't need to be perfect about it either, killing just 10 carriers before battle starts proper is already a ridiculously good deal for 8DP.

Shade couldn't do it quite as well, sure. It can barely fire 3 AM blasters with un-skilled character, and you don't get much margin with skills. About Shade my only point is that 2nd best is still quite good.

[Plantissue]

"Just herd fighters away" what does this even mean? The fighters are still there on the way back to the enemy fleet. I thought we were talking about skillless, but then you go adding combat endurance skill what is the point? You can't argue for without skills, and then add skills whenver you want. But whetver. Sure AM Blasters fire rate is once very 10 seconds, but that's purely theoretical. You are still having to withdraw, vent re-engage, manoeuvre around safely, unphase fire and rephase. Just making sure you don't take to much damage for that 2 second vulnerability window can take up a lot of time itself. It's not like all nearby ships will ignore a phase ship cloaking near them. You seem to think that 1v1 Sim, an afflictor or any other phase ship can just run in and destroy a ship quickly. Yes, but only in sim. Fleet battles, the reality is different. In fleet battles, you aren't going to fire another AM Blaster shot in the next 10 seconds as if all the other ships have nothing to say about it.

[TaLaR]

Obviously, if we are talking about taking on endgame fleets, then it's with full skills. Skill-less applies to 1v1 sim comparisons and similar tailored situations.

Getting a shot exactly every 10 sec is rare, but not necessary. About once every 16-17 seconds is good enough to use up all 20 with skilled character. Using up all 20 isn't the minimum required performance either, you contribute beyond your weight long before that point.

No, nearby ships won't ignore you. Doesn't mean they can actually do much. Afflictor is fast enough to dodge a most projectile fire at medium range, so mostly you need to be aware of burst beams, unusually fast projectiles/missiles, special systems, fast fighters,etc and most importantly death explosions.

Example of fleet fight:
Piloted Afflictor + Fleet vs Titan-x IBB. No actual fighters, but Titan-X missile spam is even more annoying to deal with, so I'd count it as suitable demo replacement. Also few extra annoying ships like Lynx (long range insta-hit system + phase cloak), and several other ships cloaks and time altering systems (once again, imo more dangerous than simple fighters).
My fleet had no good way to deal with Titan-X other than using Afflictor (endless missile spam just doesn't allow to vent and easily catches my AI ships even under Avoid order).
Didn't use up all 20 shots, but only because I had to deal with Titan-X + it's aftermath and wasted some time going for Lynxes (and then picking other targets instead). Against more typical fleet composition it wouldn't be a problem.

Spoiler

[close]

Didn't find good enemy fleets with fighters, so here are 2 fights Afflictor vs 4 carriers (just picked whatever had decently fast fighters in sim, same both times).

Skill-less: margins are thin, and I have to trade armor for effective attacks.

Spoiler

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Skilled: fighters can't follow me fast enough, carriers are free pickings. Herding is when fighters follow me away from carrier, and then I return and kill carrier before they can follow.

Spoiler

[close]

[Plantissue]

Strange assumption to make. You can be lvl 50 and not have a single Combat Skill. In any case you first talk about skillless, only to add skills later, what's the point of doing that?

And no, outside of sim, you aren't going to shoot once every 10 seconds.

[TaLaR]

'Full skills' doesn't mean every single combat skill. But close enough to that (you can check at start of 1st video).

Why are you so attached to firing every 10 sec part? Once every 16-17 sec is good enough with Hardened Systems + Combat Endurance 1 (315 sec, but you have some overtime if really needed). And even half that can be good enough, if you take out important enough targets.

[Plantissue]

It was you who said firing every 10 seconds not me. I;m just responding to that.

you need only 200 to just fire all 20 shots

3 AM phase frigate can kill single frigate/low armor DE every 10 seconds

It's not my fault that you progressively change goalposts to fit your narrative, from however you want to spin it. if you want to kill a medusa in one shot, you need 3 AM blasters. You will also need to manoeuvre not only round the shield but in a position where you wouldn't take too much damage in the 2 seond vulnerability window; remember you got to do this 20 times! Even venting takes time. And flux when phased is an ever pressing clock since you want to have enough flux spare to fire those 3 AM blasters before rephasing.

Afflictor and Shades are a great ship. There's no need to unneccessarily hype them up when describing its capabilities. Their real capabilities are good enough by itself.