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Author Topic: Is the enforcer worth it?  (Read 15545 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2019, 06:10:19 AM »

Enforcer needs to trade it's armor for flux advantage. And supplement that with missiles/SO. Enforcer has no effective tactic which doesn't use up resources, unlike the better DEs.
Rushing the enemy with Burn Drive, trading blows and winning at last 10% of hp (if necessary) is the correct way to use Enforcer, trying to play it safe just allows the enemy to leverage flux/shield advantages and kill Enforcer one-sidedly.

AI simply isn't capable of fighting like that, even SO Reckless, which makes AI Enforcers quite useless.
Player can, but Enforcer is high risk-low reward, so why bother?
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Lucky33

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2019, 06:28:06 AM »

We already have Hammerhead and Sunder.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2019, 07:03:12 AM »

Not to mention the Pirate version if the Falcon that can sport 4 medium weapon mounts. Fill it full of rockets and it's absolutely disgusting.
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bobucles

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2019, 07:14:28 AM »

The enforcer's main advantage over a hammerhead or sunder is its 4 small missile mounts. Enforcers have the armor and the burn drive to dive in close and drop torpedos in a way that other destroyers can't. Even though a Drover also has 4 small missile points, you can't exactly charge in with it. The Buffalo Mk.II is vastly superior for missile boating with its 1x medium/3x small missiles, costing 4 deployment points, but it's too fragile to close the distance.

If an enforcer got a buff, it'd probably be best buffed towards being a torpedo dive bomber. That way it can deliver a devastating opener that makes way for other ships to finish the battle.

Lucky33

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2019, 09:37:41 AM »

We already have Afflictor.
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Igncom1

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2019, 10:02:35 AM »

So?
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Megas

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2019, 10:14:29 AM »

We already have Afflictor.
Next release, some universal mounts may be changed (to hybrid, I presume) in an effort to weaken it.  If that happens, Afflictor will not be the torpedo/missile boat that it is today.  Kind of like what happened to Harbinger between last and current releases.  Right now, four Reaper Afflictor can do some of the cheese Harbinger used to do last release.

Enforcer's main advantage is being common (via ship recovery from pirate fleets), disposable, and effective enough with junk weapons early in the game.  It is not completely hopeless during the time of the game when small ships are relevant.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2019, 10:38:08 AM »

I hope it also gets additional nerfing, the thing can do more damage than some cruisers and required to be constantly drowned by fighters.
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Thaago

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2019, 11:06:30 AM »

I find the Enforcer to be a good D-mod ship because its main advantages - 4 small missiles, lots of OP for converted Hangar, and 360 flak coverage - don't get any worse from D mods. It is a weak ship but it does not degrade in value as quickly as other ships, so it can still serve as a cheap escort. However that niche is hurt significantly by its fuel cost... 3 fuel per lightyear for a cheap missile/fighter/flak escort is a lot.
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Megas

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2019, 11:08:14 AM »

I hope it also gets additional nerfing, the thing can do more damage than some cruisers and required to be constantly drowned by fighters.
I assume you mean Afflictor.  I like to see Afflictor (and Shade) return to its roots of the ghost brawler (or tank) it used to be, flickering phase cloak to dodge shots then strike back, sort of like a parry system from a fighting game, something even AI could do, not be glorified strike bombers that can one-shot a big ship or battlestation section twice then retreat, but only if the player controls it.  AI is terrible with phase ships that are not Doom.

If you mean Enforcer, it needs to be stronger to compete with the other three classic destroyer warships... or it can be cheaper than it is now and evolve into a low-tech Shrike.
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Arcagnello

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2019, 11:39:25 AM »

Yeah I did mean the Afflictor. What I think is OP about it is its special ability combined with how utterly fast it is and how long it can stay cloaked, allowing it to backstab virtually anything in its FP range. I litterally focus those things more than battleships to prevent them from doing their thing. The AI using phase ships may be bad but it's nothing compared to how utterly incapable the AI of other ships is in dealing with them.

I either order a whole legion/drover to fill it full of fighter lead or send a Falcon to chase it until it's time effectively runs out, gets critical malfunctions as is istagibbed.
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Lucky33

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2019, 12:27:36 PM »

So?

This is it. Afflictor has mobility system combined with the invulnerability and another x1,5 damage boost. There is no place for a so called "torpedo bomber" with its suicide drive and higher costs.

We already have Afflictor.
Next release, some universal mounts may be changed (to hybrid, I presume) in an effort to weaken it.  If that happens, Afflictor will not be the torpedo/missile boat that it is today.  Kind of like what happened to Harbinger between last and current releases.  Right now, four Reaper Afflictor can do some of the cheese Harbinger used to do last release.

Enforcer's main advantage is being common (via ship recovery from pirate fleets), disposable, and effective enough with junk weapons early in the game.  It is not completely hopeless during the time of the game when small ships are relevant.

Some? I did well with P version. Honestly even with complete removal of missile slots it still will be brocken thanks to its damage amplifier. Who needs all the damage boosting skills than you can just press F to give them for anybody who will shoot at your target?

What do you mean by "effective"? Hammerhead will still ammo feed boost any weapons no matter how junk they are. Even with Arbalests and Light Mortars it will still beat Enforcer. You cant get junkier than that.
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Igncom1

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2019, 01:39:59 PM »

You can't just eliminate a ship from existing because another is better at it's job.

And phase ships are cheating with their damage because their defence consists entire of dodge or die. For the two minutes they can even operate for.

It's a good brick, for a destroyer.
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Megas

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2019, 01:49:55 PM »

"Effective" meaning good enough to kill early-game pirates and pirate bases long enough until player earns enough money to buy superior ships or build his first colony, or collect enough junk ships to kill a bigger fleet (like that very first expedition from a major faction) and steal their cruisers, then use those junk cruisers to steal a capital.

I do not remember stealing Hammerhead hulls from pirates.  Sure, it would be great to steal superior hulls from pirates if I cannot easily buy good ships at will, but pirates that are beatable with a starter fleet use Enforcers, Mules, and Shrike (P).

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Honestly even with complete removal of missile slots it still will be brocken thanks to its damage amplifier.
Because the other options may not one-shot big things in a single salvo, except maybe four AM Blasters, whose range is short enough to be maybe within the blast radius of an exploding capital.  Also, Reapers are great for Quake1 rocket launcher-style splash kills against battlestation segments.  Fire boosted Reapers at the wall behind the module, and the module will still be destroyed.  Conventional weapons cannot do that.

Harbinger with phase lances or AM blasters is kind of underwhelming even with Quantum Disruptor.  It was too powerful with Reapers.  With phase lance/AM Blasters, Harbinger is a decent small ship sweeper.  I would not use it instead of four Reaper Afflictor against a cruiser, capital, or battlestation.  Quantum Disruptor is generally more cheesy than Entropy Amplifier.  If Afflictor lost all of its missile slots, I would not use it at all, except as an improvised phase hauler (for marines or loot) when I raid Culann for blueprints with a pure phase fleet.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 01:51:37 PM by Megas »
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bobucles

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Re: Is the enforcer worth it?
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2019, 03:01:19 PM »

The Afflictor is a default ship that fights like a SO ship. The speed is fantastic, the flux venting is fantastic, and the PPT is absolutely awful. It's an ace even among its own kin, being better than the Gremlin and Shade in pretty much every way. It even gives the Harbinger a run for its money, and that's a much larger ship. The only other frigates with competing flux power are station defenses, the hero hyperion, and the arguably OP Tempest.

Afflictor probably needs a nerf, but you can't push it back without making it a Shade Mk.II. There is a considerable gap between Shade and Harbringer, so Afflictor should probably get bumped up to a light destroyer. That'd make it a fundamentally slower, more expensive and longer lasting ship. The higher expense nerfs its utility as a reaper boat, but extra PPT lets it fight more like a normal ship.
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