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Author Topic: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament  (Read 6274 times)

Thaago

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8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« on: November 04, 2019, 08:40:26 AM »

[Edit] And here is a playlist of all of them, put together by SCC: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqQH1K5cVg_5gOkGNd8IvEYSKXFQOItEU [/edit]

The 8th Starsector Tournament is upon us!

This will be a 2v2 (PP vPP) team based tournament with lots of faction mods. You can pick your teammate, but each teammate must be a different faction. 100 DP for each player, for 200 DP per team. Complete rules can be found here:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15jXnkRIXCBOOcemNxSd9bkvFmk1noamvV-nxTdOTbsU/edit?usp=sharing

There are 32 40 player slots for this tourney (16 teams, 4 streams of 8 10 matches per stream). If there is enough interest, we may open an underdog league with TBD crazy factions! The Inscription sheet can be found here (instructions on the rules document!:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ORkeZJxWN7kJSvfSvzH6n9BxeEu1VToKMnWo3uejzQ8/edit?usp=sharing

[Edit] Also, a great place to find a teammate is the Tournament Chat on the Discord!
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 10:38:47 PM by Thaago »
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Thaago

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2019, 12:27:24 PM »

Due to high demand, 8 additional slots opened! 32 slots filled at the time of this post.
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Astraltor

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2019, 02:01:35 PM »

No Limits??

These rules look.. meme-tastic!

I'm in!
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Thaago

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament: Stream Monday!
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2019, 03:22:22 PM »

First stream is tomorrow,  Monday, 11th November. 20:30 UTC (3:30 pm EST), Nemo’s Channel: https://www.twitch.tv/nemo_naemo

I'll make another post here tomorrow as a reminder!
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RustyCabbage

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 01:16:03 PM »

Wasn't able to sleep last night, so here's a vacuous post about the Round 1 Fleets. Spoilers for match results, no offence meant for any comments made.

Summary summary: Use reckless AI or use more fighters. Consider extreme mods.
Spoiler
Match 1: Zen (Mayasura) + Hunts (VMT) vs. =PB= (Mayasura) + Rowimk (Diable)
Summary: Team 1 had a solid game plan. Team 2 had good PD, but was overfluxed, had no way to seriously apply pressure and had insufficient fighter superiority, so being ground down was inevitable.
Spoiler
Zen (Mayasura) + Hunts (VMT)
2x Javanicus – Solid PD/Locust wall to defend the Valkyries. I think the Hornets could probably be Sabots to help out the Khopeshes, and GCAI/ECCM are probably less useful than something like Hardened Shields to make the Javanicii nigh-unkillable.
33/34x CH Valkyries – CH Khopeshes were not something I expected, but they performed much better than I thought. It could maybe be optimized a little more (what’s the point of that one vent?) but on the whole it’s a fine loadout.

=PB= (Mayasura) + Rowimk (Diable)
1x Arjuna – I think if you aren’t going for massive missile saturation like 33 Khopesh wings, you’re better off just massing interceptors to attain fighter superiority. Otherwise, I like the choice of Proximity Charge Launchers, and there’s enough LRPD to make a nice no-missile zone. It’s a bit heavy on flux, so 22 of those 28 caps probably should have been shoved into vents
2x Sarissa – I personally hate heavy burst lasers, especially since you don’t have LRPD to drop missiles into one-shot range. Small Harpoons without EMR aren’t very cost effective, but I suppose they’re better than nothing. HIL with no shield cracking, nor ITU seems a bit strange to me. IMO this is a ship that isn’t sure if it wants to be a carrier or a line ship, and hence fails at both.
1x Panda – 5153 weapon flux and 600 shield flux on 1700 dissipation is simply unsustainable. No wanzers with the built-in Servicing Gantry seems a bit strange to me, but I don’t really know the mechanics behind it. Heavy armor is okay given the Panda’s terrible base armor. Hardened subsystems seems questionable to me – in what situation are you going to run out of PPT where the fight hasn’t already been decided. Still liking the PCL, but this ship seems doomed to fail.
3x Derechos – Seem decent, I dunno.
[close]

Match 2: Kissa Mies (JP) + Johan (DME) vs. Gal Paladin (DME) + Starasp (VSP)
Summary: Two hella scary fleets made for an incredibly exciting match. Both of them are teams to watch in the future. I’m curious if the match would have gone significantly differently had JP gone Reckless over Aggressive, but I can’t fault anyone’s decisions here.
Spoiler
Kissa Mies (JP) + Johan (DME)
3x Mastiff – Solid!
4x Langoustine – 7200 is the break-even point for Hardened Shields on destroyers, so I heartily approve.
4x Wirefox – Looking good. Not sold on the Tactical Laser, but it’s probably decent pressure.
4x Wanderer – Not a huge fan of Phase Lances, but the loadout looks good. My inexperience with DME is showing, heh.
1x Normandy – I’m always down for Extreme Mods. I think ECM package is overrated, but dedicated carriers don’t really need much else, so it seems fine to me.
3x d’Erlon – See Normandy comments. The Mystere Fighter-Bombers are attached to Timid carriers, which, depending on how the carrier AI works, might not be the best idea though.

Gal Paladin (DME) + Starasp (VSP)
4x Bomber Reef & 3x Interceptor Reef – Solid.
2x Cargo Rig – Easy 10% Nav Relay bonuses. I’m not exactly sure how much these ships cost, but they seem like a good addition.
1x Tyrant – I haven’t designed a Tyrant before, but this looks good. LDMGs are for anti-fighter I’m guessing. Broadswords are Low-Tech and hence illegal, but I don’t blame Thaago/Starasp for not noticing :heh:. This Tyrant is given Aggressive AI, which I think is the right call given how many interceptors Gal Paladin brought. I personally don’t like Squalls without EMR (would probably opt for Locust), but using Mjolnirs means less kinetic damage, so it’s probably the right call.
2x Intimidator – Is Advanced Optics necessary for this ship? Seems a bit expensive for +200 range on a single weapon.
2x Subjugator – Mix of Harpoons and Annihilators is interesting; I’d perhaps swap the order of them so the Annihilators are better suppression for the Harpoons, but it looks fine.
[close]

Match 3: Paul_Kauphart (VMT) + NaitNait (Blackrock) vs. Cums (Tiandong) + Menhir (Blackrock)
Summary: Imo Team 2 didn’t have enough damage and aggression to properly threaten stuff like Victories and Sunders and the Morpheus, so I guess this was a fleet design victory rather than a ship design one (given that both teams had alright ship loadouts). Respect for using a Morpheus. Epstein didn’t kill himself.
Spoiler
Paul_Kauphart (VMT) + NaitNait (Blackrock)
1x Victory – I think this is the same Victory Paul brought to the 7th Starsector tournament. Still solid, but it looks like some weapon group optimizations are available here (e.g. alternating Harpoons). Also probably too much OP spend on the back Burst PD Lasers.
2x HIL Sunders – Same Sunders as in the 7th as well, I think. Also good, but my guess is that the Reapers wouldn’t be able to accurate hit anything short of a capital ship.
1x Monitor – I hate Monitors, but this one seems aight.
2x Alastor – One of these Alastors sniped the ally Morpheus, so this was possibly the best ship on the enemy team! :V
2x Brawler – I don’t know if Brawlers are a good choice in a mass-fighter tournament, but they look good in a vacuum.
2x Eurypterus – Tach Lances on destroyers are cool. Is that an XCOM reference?
1x Scorpion – Here’s where I point out that I know basically nothing about Blackrock. I don’t see anything egregious here though.
2x Typheus – Hardened subsystems on this thing means it can even outlast some cruisers, which is a cool touch.
2x Robberfly – If you had to shove these in I’d definitely just use it for Nav Relay/ECM auras, especially if you’re going to set them up with Timid AI. Could be a decent distraction though.
1x Mantis – Same as the Scorpion. Seems fine but I don’t know enough to say.
1x Morpheus – Dope. I think you could eschew a few caps to add strike missiles to those empty universal slots, but it’s good.

Cums (Tiandong) + Menhir (Blackrock)
3x Shouren – Reminder that Epstein didn’t kill himself. Decent loadouts too, but that’s less important.
2x Hanzhong – Another reminder that only cowards don’t use shield bypass (esp. on a high-armor-terrible-shield ship like the Hanzhong), but this loadout is good and similar to the ones my team tested against in practice.
2x Hujing – CH Mining pods is inspired. I don’t know if it’s any good, but it’s inspired.
1x Convergence – Would be cool if you could squeeze EDC in. It’s a good ship, but have you considered Extreme Mods?
1x Knight – Fine.
1x Kurmaraja – Also fine. Seems like the team in general is lacking in HE damage though, so those Serkets might be wasted.
3x Goblin – 1x LRPD might be a little too weak in the PD department, but I like the choice of max caps over vents here.
[close]

Match 4: Mortia (SRA) + Avanitia (Tahlan) vs. Carroy (Diable) + SCC (LoA)
Summary: Edith + SB Siege Panda is glorious to watch. Also damnit I was just gonna copy everything Avanitia did.
Spoiler
Mortia (SRA) + Avanitia (Tahlan)
2x Vardr – Turreted HILs basically require ATGs so good to see that there, but it feels a bit anti-synergistic to run that and Expanded Magazines AND GCAI – like c’mon that’s the dream for Autopulse Lasers :V. No missiles is strange given how good they are in tournaments, but I don’t know anything about SRA so…?
5x Bungalow – Imo Bungalows are a trap, even with Valacors. Honestly pre-match I thought they’d do well, but 1.1 shields on a slow ship without a sizeable frontline, esp. on aggressive AI with burn drive, doesn’t work I guess? When your scouting ship is a Bungalow, you may be going too tall.

Carroy (Diable) + SCC (LoA)
1x Panda – Shield bypass and 4x Uhlan Siege Lasers is dreamy. Would have liked to see some cheap Wanzers or something with a bit less PD, but its one of those things you can’t decide without testing yourself. EDIT: I'm guessing no-fighters is useful for the zero-flux bonus when not firing, though I do question how often that will come up given the range of the Uhlans, plus the Panda's natural speed with Flicker Core.
4x Fractus – Excellent.
2x Hawke – I’m unfortunately unfamiliar with LoA, but it looks like these ships have more dissipation than necessary. Maybe the ship system uses flux?
3x Caswell – Looking good.
1x Burke – Cool I guess. Is this a ship that wants GCAI?
1x Edith – Top tier support, would commend.
1x Fox – I’m guessing this is here to fill DP.
[close]

Match 5: TheKart (II) + Vayra (JP) vs. Solinarius (VSP) + TheWikiFish (VLT)
Summary: TheKart and Vayra are among the tournament favorites so this result isn’t surprising. The Reckless JP ships did huge work.
Spoiler
TheKart (II) + Vayra (JP)
1x AP Caesar – 4200 armor. This is a scary ship.
1x TP Matriarch – Good. Steady AI also seems appropriate.
6x Langoustine – I think Hardened Shields is wrong here – you have high weapon flux and lower capacity than the break-even point.
6x Hammer – Nice.
4x Wirefox – Aux thrusters is interesting and max caps looks right.
Solinarius (VSP) + TheWikiFish (VLT)
2x SO Typhon – Heavy Burst Lasers and Flare Guns are gross. Plasma is good, but this ship really needed to be given Reckless AI over Aggressive.
4x Dire Wolf - Heavy Burst Lasers and Flare Guns are still gross. Some strange hull mods like ECM that probably should have gone into more caps and vents.
2x Punisher – Punishers are light cruisers right? Seems strange that you’d use them and build them as your front line (30 caps) when VLT has Dominators and Onslaughts available.
3x Kite – Ok.
2x Condor – See Thaago on good things you can say about Condors.
2x Lasher – A strange mishmash of weapons and hull mods.
2x Striker – A strange mishmash of weapons and hull mods.
3x Buffalo – More CH mining pods. I think at this point you’re better off with Makeshift Shields. Nav Relay and ECM are nice to have I guess.
[close]

Match 6: Astraltor (II) + Blothorn (Tiandong) vs. DaddyPants (VLT) + Rubin (me!) (Tahlan)
Summary: No strong frontline nor fighter superiority on Team 1. I don’t think going wide is very good on II. Tiandong could use some buffs on the heavy cruiser/capital end imo. Nia pls give back Hresvelgr (LI).
Spoiler
Astraltor (II) + Blothorn (Tiandong)
4x Harpoon Basileus – Looks good. They’ll probably be scared any time they see a missile since they have no PD, and I think Harpoons are way better with ECCM (have you considered adding Extreme Mods? (don’t actually this ship only has two engines)), but these are good.
1x Decurion – Okay.
5x Princeps – These look fine, but maybe the vents would be better off as caps and there’s a pretty big speed mismatch for the fighters.
1x Praetorian – Probably too many tach lasers.
3x Tianshui – Looks decent. Could possibly use Extreme Mods to make space for EDC.
1x Wujang – Sure. Unfortunately it looks like this ship has no strong front-line to keep it safe.
2x Shouren – Okay, but a bit uninspiring imo.

DaddyPants (VLT) + Rubin (me!) (Tahlan)
23x CH Buffalos – Some Drakes and some Talons. I don’t know how DaddyPants designs these things – they look genuinely disgusting to me – but they’re dope.
1x Hound – Nav relay and ECM and fills the last 3 DP. Hold up, Hounds only have 2 engines – was this thing spinning out during engine malfunctions?
3x Yukikaze – SYNERGY IS FOR SCRUBS AND SQUARES.
[close]

Match 7: FrancoDeGolla (VHT) + Yuof (LoA) vs. LightningJC (SCY) + =PB= (Seeker)
Summary: High Tech Best Tech.
Spoiler
FrancoDeGolla (VHT) + Yuof (LoA)
1x Paragon – Standard and good Paragon. Sabots could maybe be Linked. No shield bypass makes me sad.
6x Vayra Omens – The gold standard.
1x Apogee – HIL + Squall is a nice combo, plus FrancoDeGolla added Advanced Optics and EMR. Bit low on PD, but you have Omens to fill in the gap so no complaints! (Except for the Swarmer, heh.)
2x Macnamara – I guess the Babyhawks aren’t supposed to be a thing, but the loadout looks good.
1x Edith – Yus.
2x Caswell – I haven’t been mentioning it thus far, but Reliants really aren’t good PD guys. Still, Omens + they’re backline carriers so it’s all good.

LightningJC (SCY) + =PB= (Seeker)
SCY Stuff: LightningJC & =PB= have graciously described their ship roles in the variant names and I don’t know anything about SCY, so go read those instead.
3x Whirlwind – I dunno, Whirlwinds feel too slow to SO personally, and Heavy Blaster + Plasma Cannon together seems like unnecessary overkill. I think something like a Heavy Ion Blaster would have been really cool to see.
1x Bully – I don’t like MKIXs.
1x Pest - +1 free OP is simply optimal.
[close]

Match 8: dansi212 (SCY) + KnightOfTigers (DME) vs. Archaeon (Mayasura) + Arkangelmark5 (ORA)
Summary: I think more and more we see the importance of having a mix of wide and tall. Lots of these losing fleets simply do not have a strong anchor to rely on.
Spoiler
dansi212 (SCY) + KnightOfTigers (DME)
2x Corocotta (Armored) – Gee, I’m not qualified to say anything about this ship/faction. Looks good.
2x Corocotta – I don’t know if these are overfluxed, or if this is just a SCY thing.
1x Erymanthian Boar – Singularity Torpedoes are cool and recognizable. Not sure if there’s follow-up for them though.
5x Wanderer – Cool, but I feel like DME lends itself too much to carriers and fighters to not roll with CH.
2x Normandy – Slight fighter speed mismatch. Not a fan the Lightning Gun. As with all carriers I think it could use EDC (Have you considered Extreme Mods).

Archaeon (Mayasura) + Arkangelmark5 (ORA)
3x Flak Perryi – Flare guns: still gross. Otherwise nice variant. Not sure if Reckless AI is the play here.
5x HVD Perryi – Cool.
4x Stingray – Heavy Burst Lasers and Flare Guns – Bleh! EDC and Extreme Mods though, so + for that.
6x Peltast – Nav Relay over ECM is interesting.
2x Enlightenment – Hm… the only things I dislike more than HBLs and Flare Guns would have to be Paladin PD and Blast Doors – oh. ARU + Extreme Mods, plus Mini Blaster Arrays make me smile though.
[close]

Match 9: Hrothgar Heavenlight (VSP) + neptix (II) vs. AsterPiano (VMT) + Deskup (Sylphon)
Summary: The key takeaway here is that if you’re not building for fighter superiority, you absolutely need Reckless personality on your ships.
Spoiler
Hrothgar Heavenlight (VSP) + neptix (II)
2x Persecutor – Seems okay.
4x Bruiser – Better than a brawler imo, though I don’t remember its DP cost.
15x Razorbacks – I like these, but they need Reckless AI over Aggressive.
1x Matriarch – Inferno MIRVs aren’t great missiles imo, but I see the intention here. Also it has +2 OP over the maximum, whoops!
3x Sabot/Harpoon Basileus – I like these a lot, assuming the Harpoons are linked.
4x Inferno/Ion Basileus – I don’t like these a lot – just some underwhelming missiles.

AsterPiano (VMT) + Deskup (Sylphon)
8x Khopesh Valkyries – ITU Railguns are an interesting choice – works quite well against opponents that won’t push it. Aggressive AI certainly helps.
24x Thunder Valkyries – So I guess these are preferable to Drovers for some reason?
2x Tilia – Nav Relay over ECM again – very curious. No EDC on dedicated carriers still bothers me (I hear there’s a cool hullmod to get more OP for little downside on your carriers).
1x Etrika – Looks hella overfluxed, but I’m a dumb and don’t know anything about Sylphon.
1x Repelkia – Cool. Also I want to mention how I’m constantly confused by people’s decisions to throw in caps over vents seemingly at random – is there a reason to go 5 more caps instead of finishing off the vents here?
1x Celika – Double Lances are bleh, but at least you have fighter superiority and therefore more chances to break through shields.
1x Tarima (SC) – More heavily overfluxed ships with strange cap/vent ratios.
[close]

Match 10: Connortron7 (Blackrock) + BulbasaurWizard (Diable) vs. Nia (SRA) + Knight Chase (LoA)
Summary: These fleets seemed pretty evenly matched with nothing cheesy or crazy. Trans rights. Thank goodness matches are Bo1.
Spoiler
Connortron7 (Blackrock) + BulbasaurWizard (Diable)
1x Kurmaraja – I still don’t like Lightning Guns, but I do like the Gauss. Unfortunately, it’s overfluxed with so much OP being spend on caps. No EDC for a 4-deck carrier again.
1x Convergence – Taipan feels slightly wasted here with the slow speed of the other fighters, but otherwise it’s cool.
2x Eurypterus – two different variants, both seem pretty cool. The Gale Battery one I think should swap the allocations to caps and vents.
3x Goblin – Eh, not a huge fan of the BPDL and Light Phase Lance ones, but in the end they’re 3 DP ships – they don’t make a major difference I think.
1x Maelstrom – Solid. Empty universals are kind of sad to see but what can you do.
1x Daze – Also solid.
1x SO Hayle – Not sure if Hayles are good SO material, but that might be my inexperience with Diable showing. Good cap/vent allocation.
2x Fractus – Good.
2x Vapor – Alright.

Nia (SRA) + Knight Chase (LoA)
1x Skadi – Dope. No EDC makes me sad, but it looks like a solid battle carrier.
2x Charybdis – Same as Skadi.
1x Lyons – Looks a bit heavy on flux and a bit lacking on PD, but maybe the fighters will cover for that.
2x Osmond – Am I missing something – what is the Advanced Optics for here? EDIT: Ah, the Tachyon Lance sorta just blends in. In any case, I'm not sure it's a worthwhile investment, spending 10 OP for 200 range on a single weapon.
2x Victoria – Cool cool.
1x Caswell – Nice.
1x Thatcher – Is having a singular SO ship a good idea? Seems mighty strange to me. Loadout looks good though.
1x Edith – Game-saving game crashes.
[close]
[close]

SCC

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 03:15:17 PM »

Avanitia and Mortia's fleets were actually pretty well thought-out. The biggest issue comes from AI. For one, it burn-drived one of the bungalow in a free offering, and for the other, it didn't coordinate Valacors nearly as much as it should have. Tahlan just received an update in which Bungalow was made less suicidal and Valacors were made more survivable, making them work more like they were supposed to. Unfortunately, the first round is already over.

RustyCabbage

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 05:07:31 PM »

Avanitia and Mortia's fleets were actually pretty well thought-out. The biggest issue comes from AI. For one, it burn-drived one of the bungalow in a free offering, and for the other, it didn't coordinate Valacors nearly as much as it should have. Tahlan just received an update in which Bungalow was made less suicidal and Valacors were made more survivable, making them work more like they were supposed to. Unfortunately, the first round is already over.
Mhm. I don't think that they're badly designed (my pre-match, post-variant reveal prediction was them winning - no offence to your excellent fleet of course), but I do feel like seeing 1/10th of your fleet burn-driving alone into the center is an issue that would show up during testing and could be mitigated. I guess I'm personally not a fan of such a high variance fleet style. In any case, the Tahlan patches are very welcome and definitely give the Bungalow a better niche in the faction/ship pack.

namad

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 07:53:10 PM »

Feels like the fact that valkyrie's count as destroyers is almost a bug in vanilla. 3dp for a carrier is just not intended. Not sure which nerf would make the most sense. I feel like banning the valkyrie would just result in players using buffalo mk2's but 25 hangars is a lot less than 33 hangars.

Nerfing converted hangars itself could also work although it might unintentionally ruin some ships that are a bit more valid.

My personal favorite rule would be to do something like make it so that there's a limit of say 10 of a specific ship per fleet. Although then you just get 10valks and 10buffalos on every team.

Maybe instead make it so that you pay a 1dp penalty for every ship of the same hull type above 5? so the 6th costs +1 and the 7th costs +2? Which would let someone field 6 omens but would totally ruin valkyrie's and buffalo's above 5? You could also make it so that there's a 1dp penalty per identical hull per 5 matching hulls? so if you have 4 of one hull you pay a 0 penalty, but 5 of one hull is a penalty of 5 and 10 of one hull is a penalty of 15?

edit: Also might wanna ban the edith, if only because it's bugged and if there's an edith versus edith matchup it just flat out won't work. Not to mention even in that final matchup with only 1 total edith, the game crashed, and I'm willing to assume it's the edith's fault.



tl;dr
All of this sounds pretty convoluted so, maybe just charge 1dp per converted hangar hullmod added to your ships? (built-in converted hangars not counting?)
« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 08:41:02 PM by namad »
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Thaago

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 09:32:00 PM »

I've been off and on about having a CH have a DP penalty. On the one hand, CH Valkerie and BuffaloM2 spam is a thing, and they bring a lot of fighters per DP (and for the BuffaloM2, a whole bunch of missiles). But the fighters they bring are also quite weak... compared to dedicated carrier spam its not that much more powerful, if at all. CH just carries such large penalties and don't allow free bomber replacements that I'm not sure 3dp for one of them is actually better than 5dp for condors (and Drovers are widely considered even better at 6dp due to their system).

The one thing that is an issue about the valk spam is how the AI fights them: it sees the wall of destroyers and is scared, instead of just rolling them up and murdering them. Something a player in the campaign could get around pretty easily with orders, but no go for the tournament.
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Modo44

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 01:04:48 AM »

Feels like the fact that valkyrie's count as destroyers is almost a bug in vanilla.
It is not just a bug, but a serious one. It affects all ships, not just the Valkyrie. The AI only seems to check the opposing ship class, not its stats, which leads to sudden death or extremely passive play despite clear (to the player) tactical solutions. The tournament setup (no orders during battle) makes this problem much more obvious.
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TaLaR

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2019, 02:06:47 AM »

Yeah, checking ship class is bad idea no matter how you look at it (Buffalo vs Medusa = even fight, lol). DP comparison would be just as simple, yet more meaningful.
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namad

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2019, 08:54:40 AM »

You could just class buffalomk2 and valkyrie as frigates though and the ai would totally comprehend almost right away.
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Thaago

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2019, 09:31:03 AM »

This and a bit of shield handling (HIL and fighters, shielded vs the fighters) have been the main 'bugs' that I've seen so far in the tourney. Any others people have noticed that have good video evidence? One of the goals of the tourney is to find these things so we can show Alex with example footage.
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namad

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2019, 02:23:46 PM »

I actually do not think that that HIL is a bug. Most of the time the HIL starts firing when the shield is already turned the wrong way, and maybe the ship doesn't think it's worth wasting a second without any shields to put them down and re-raise them on the correct side. Capital ship's with omni shields have really slowly moving shields and no one is running accelerated shields. Yes, it's bad fleet AI that the ships keep ending up in this trap, but it's more of a fleet trap than a shield bug in my eyes.

I also think some of the "worst" examples of the HIL dodging shields could've been due to the broken edith that alex didn't put in the game himself.

The fleet AI can't comprehend a HIL being given a range buff in the middle of the deployment. I'm not sure that's a bug, because it's not a feature in the first place. Paragon HILs weren't as good at sniping as those edith HILs. I think maybe the fleet AI calculates the range it wants to stay at to avoid the HIL without accounting for the edith? That would explain it entirely, and wouldn't really be a "bug". Although converted hangars, valkyrie, buffalomk2, and sabot's are all vanilla and might involve AI related bugs.

Maybe the edith buff could be changed to projectile movement speed instead of range? and then instead of being nerfed from 30% for capitals to 10% it could go up to something insane like 50% because projectile movement speed won't break fleetAI but could still be useful, especially if LoA is given a lot of long range guns that have slow projectile speeds (which I think it actually already has lots of).
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 03:06:01 PM by namad »
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Thaago

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Re: 8th Starsector 2v2 Team Tournament
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2019, 04:35:10 PM »

Well I know that the Edith is getting some changes, though i'm not 100% on what they will end up being.

The HIL bug I was thinking about is less not shielding in time or it being very long range, but just shield priority. Like a narrow shielded ship has its shield fully deployed and it not moving it, and it has chosen to point the shield at something other than the HIL which is burning the ship down. Do you happen to remember when the bug you are talking about happened in the stream? Might be an issue that I missed!
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