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Author Topic: Carriers  (Read 8607 times)

InvictusImperator

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Carriers
« on: October 23, 2019, 12:04:09 PM »

What is the best carrier? Drover vs Heron vs Astral etc. Also, what are the best wing Load outs for them? Thanks.
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pedro1_1

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2019, 12:30:37 PM »

What is the best carrier? Drover vs Heron vs Astral etc. Also, what are the best wing Load outs for them? Thanks.

If you want only one carrier to be behind your lines or use bombers it's the Astral.
If you want multiple carriers or use fighters it's the Drover.
Heron, Mora, Legion((XIV)) and Shepard(yes it's a carrier) are in the midle of the two.
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DrPhat

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2019, 12:33:12 PM »

Early game go with An Eagles/Dominators and Drovers with talon and broadsword until you can get some Legions for more aggressive play or Astrals for more defensive play. Farm ordo fleets in medium danger systems for spark fighters then switch all your fighters over to those.

Endgame if your offensive use Onslaughts or Paragon(s) if your defensive. Using only carriers is effective but slower than having a capital battleship which help build hard flux and take down enemies much faster.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 12:34:55 PM by DrPhat »
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Thaago

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2019, 12:36:40 PM »

Depends what you mean by 'best', but in general the Drover is the most cost effective. It is ideally loaded with fighters as opposed to bombers, as the ship system will increase the wing size when active. Most combinations will work, though double Talon is a bit light and the ship has enough OP for a full missile load and the medium sized fighters. Double Sparks is of course the power load as Sparks are incredibly overpowered. Bombers are still ok as the system helps get wing sizes back to max very quickly (can double launch strikes if you activate after the first wave has fired, as returning craft count as 'dead' to the rebuild system).

Heron is also good and is more survivable thanks to its higher speed, and is ideally loaded with strike bombers thanks to its +50% damage system (note: needs to be activated before the bomber launches its payload, as the buff is applied to the fighter and then to the torpedo at launch time). Broadsword + 2 strike ships works quite nicely, though if you are already swarming with fighters the distraction is less needed, in which case longbow + 2 HE bombers is good as well.

Astral is the glass cannon of the bunch. It is vastly less survivable than the others because of its very low speed, but it has a very powerful system for bombers with Recall Device: it lowers casualties, doubles the strike frequency, AND vastly helps fighter replenishment rate as its not ticking down during the bombers fly back period. Best loaded with strike bombers - 2 longbows and then HE of choice works well, and while not ideal broadswords can be used in a pinch. Also, large missiles are great for standoff fire support.
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Florian

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2019, 01:58:06 PM »

Non Vanilla:

Fractus carrier from diable avionics (balanced mod).

Wanzers are tough, Fractus has 2 bays cost 10 to deploy and replace the wings faster from both an ability and a build in hullmod. And it has a medium missile point (Diable has a convenient, still balanced, "no ammo LRM"). Missiles works well with "drones" because of the saturation effect. But they are expensive, slow and pop easily if put on direct fire.

For the wanzer squad, the blizzaia are effective as and anti fast *** screen (frigates, destroyers, fighters, missiles...) the ravens are good against bigger opponents (heavy fighter). The frost wing aren't wanzers but cheap interceptors with a range of 10 000. Useful to easily kill those annoying remnant wolves.

The bomber wanzer wing work great on gusts - maelstrom - pandemonium (not carriers but combat ships with 1-3 bay). Because they are closer to the ennemy (shorter bombing trip).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 02:03:06 PM by Florian »
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lethargie

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2019, 03:24:58 PM »

Depend a lot of what you want out of carriers.

If you mostly want an escort for warship, claw and xyphos excell at disabling ennemy ship/fighter.
For bombers, longbow are really good, while the he bombers all have strength and weakness.

For swarming ship with fighters you have drovers and spark, but you need to really dedicate yourself to it to reach critical mass.

Other than drover swarm or astral hit squad the rest is pretty balanced.
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Locklave

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2019, 07:31:37 PM »

Legion/Mora are good carriers too. Very fighty too.
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Serenitis

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2019, 02:56:23 AM »

What is the best carrier?
The best carrier is the one you're happiest using. The one that fits with and compliments the way you play.
Quote
what are the best wing Load outs for them? Thanks.
This depends on what you have available, and what you like using.

Some suggestions (which may or may not align with your preference):

Condor
Bays: 2
OP: 45
Speed: 40
Deploy Cost: 10
Spoiler
Early game, this is all you'll have to work with. And Condor's lack of OP makes it really hard to fit bombers, because the carrier is so fragile it will definitely need bulkheads fitting to it so it can be recovered when it inevitably gets merked. (Early game loss avoidance.)
This means they'll almost always carry 2x fighters of some type. Broadsword/Talon is a perfectly good combination. Talon/Talon works.
Condor's low speed makes a Thunder/Thunder loadout attractive so it can still contribute while it lags behind everything else.
If you want to put bombers on a Condor, you'll need to compromise by removing something else. You can just about fit a Dagger/Talon loadout on it if you de-prioritise everything else.
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Gemini
Bays: 1
OP: 55
Speed: 50
Deploy Cost: 9
Spoiler
A side-grade to the Condor, which may prove useful. Faster, can actually defend itself, and has more OP to use. The only downside is getting half the fighters for a similar deployment cost.
Gemini has the OP to fit most bombers fairly comfortably, and will likely be the first carrier you encounter which can do so. But it presents you with a problem - Gemini has the reserve deployment special, which only works with fighters, so putting bombers on it is a waste.
So it will always want to have fighters fitted to take advantage the extra firepower it provides, especially early game when you're likely to be using it.
Works well as a platform for support fighters like Xyphos.
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Drover
Bays: 2
OP: 70
Speed: 75
Deploy Cost: 12
Spoiler
This thing. It's like a clown car for angry bees.
Like the Gemini it has the reserve deployment special, so fitting bombers is borderline negligent. It almost doesn't matter what you put in the bays, so long as it's a fighter.
The only thing you want to avoid is combining support fighters with any other kind.
Broadsword/Talon is p. much the go-to combination. Although it's quite tempting to use wings with low numbers so you get a bigger increase.
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Heron
Bays: 3
OP: 100
Speed: 80
Deploy Cost: 20
Spoiler
Heron will probably be the first bomber focused carrier you encounter. Its targeting feed ability boosts the damage done by its fighters, so you'll want to make the most of this by specialising in bombers.
Although using fighters is not a total waste (like putting bombers on Drover), as they still see some improvement.
The only bomber you'll struggle to use here is the Trident, it requires giving up too much (imo). Anything else will work.
Dagger/Khopesh/Khopesh is a fairly solid general purpose loadout for 42 OP.
Cobra is very attractive here - Triple Cobra costs 45 OP and gives a maximum damage potential of 18000 per bombing run.
Triple Pirhana is hillarious, both for the obscene amount of damage it spews everywhere, and for the friendly fire clown show free floating ordnance creates.
Mixing an occasional Longbow in is also helpful.
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Mora
Bays: 3
OP: 115
Speed: 46
Deploy Cost: 20
Spoiler
Mora has the distinction of being one of the most adaptable carriers available, and is happy in a variety of roles.
Triple Thunder turns it into an interdictor platform capable of exerting pressure over a wide area, which also makes its low speed less relevant.
Broadsword/Broadsword/Khopesh is an excellent close-in brawling setup - just remember to fit at least 1 non-PD weapon so the carrier will close on enemies.
Broadsword/Dagger/Dagger is a decent general purpose attack package.
Virtually any loadout will work here.
[close]

Legion
Bays: 4
OP: 260
Speed: 30
Deploy Cost: 40
Spoiler
Basically a Mora+. The only real difference being the Legion being much more mobile and able to rush to the front line, so long range fighters are not so attractive.
Again, virtually any loadout will work. But since Legion is a close-in brawler, fitting things that help that will give better results.
It is impossible to go wrong with Broadswords (ever), so combining them with a bombers is always useful.
Double Broadsword/Double Khopesh would be a decent starting point for seeing what works for you.
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Astral
Bays: 6
OP: 230
Speed: 30
Deploy Cost: 45
Spoiler
This is a bomber only zone. If you are putting fighters in an Astral, first: Stop. Immediately. Second: Don't do that.
Astral's ability is the recall device, which is basically half the time required for reloads (by eliminating the return journey). Putting fighters on an Astral is a huge waste.
That being said, the first thing you should consider doing is putting Longbows in 2 of the bays, and just leaving them there forever.
And then fitting in whatever other bombers appeal to you. If you have any Trident LPCs, this is probably where they'll end up.
If I have any Cobras I'd prefer to put them on Herons for the damage boost, but they're fine here if you feel the need.
Using 6x Pirhana is.... Amusing.
[close]
« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 02:59:40 AM by Serenitis »
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Null Ganymede

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2019, 04:44:06 AM »

Legion can be an amazing gunship.

Condors can be an amazing missile boat if you choose an LRM/MRM that fully abuses the ship system, and downgrade fighters to make room. They're also the most DP-efficient carriers in the game.

Mora can be an indestructible missile-suppressing bulwark, a Safety Overriden assault gunship, or just an LRM boat in your backline.

Herons and Astrals, meh. They're just strike or initial air superiority carriers.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2019, 09:58:24 AM »

Herons and Astrals, meh. They're just strike or initial air superiority carriers.

What? Astrals are by far the best bomber platform in the game. They are one of the most powerful capitals, second only to the Paragon IMO. 6 bombers attacking in sync is worth twice that many (or more) staggering in. Nothing else can come close to how well astrals sync bomber strikes.

Herons are the fastest carrier (faster than a drover in fact) plus they have a system that boosts damage on fighters. One of the better all around carriers IMO. Moras survive by tanking but they eventually get whittled down. Herons survive by not getting attacked in the first place. Very few things can both catch and hurt a heron. Mora's and herons are about the same power level in my book. Herons survive better against capitals (because running away is better than tanking big hits, regardless of how tanky your are) and do more damage with their system, but moras are more flexible. I generally prefer herons because they use less fuel, but I'm happy with either.

Condors are one of the worst carriers. Not fast enough to escape anything and able to be killed by almost everything. I avoid them as much as possible.
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Thaago

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2019, 12:21:06 PM »

Condors are, unfortunately, the worst both in and out of combat. If you look side by side with the Drover, many of its stats are half or less.

The one thing they can do well is spew Salamanders. Its not enough to make them actually good, but with dual Talons harassing enemy frigates/destroyers and 6 Salamanders going for the engines, its at least useful. Typhoon Reapers are also a hilarious choice - 99% of the time they do nothing, but the other 1% is you going "wait, did that Condor just delete a cruiser?". I had rushed back to my Condors to save them from a Dominator and managed to get it to turn towards me. Derpy 'I couldn't find a salamander so I slapped on the reapers for luls' Condor suddenly dumps 3 of them right into the things engines.
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Eji1700

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2019, 12:44:01 PM »

Condors are, unfortunately, the worst both in and out of combat. If you look side by side with the Drover, many of its stats are half or less.

The one thing they can do well is spew Salamanders. Its not enough to make them actually good, but with dual Talons harassing enemy frigates/destroyers and 6 Salamanders going for the engines, its at least useful. Typhoon Reapers are also a hilarious choice - 99% of the time they do nothing, but the other 1% is you going "wait, did that Condor just delete a cruiser?". I had rushed back to my Condors to save them from a Dominator and managed to get it to turn towards me. Derpy 'I couldn't find a salamander so I slapped on the reapers for luls' Condor suddenly dumps 3 of them right into the things engines.

I think once again people are ignoring non combat factors.

It is stupid easy to get 2-5 condors, load them up with pirhanas+LRM's, and go pirate base hunting. Just leave them in a platform when you aren't, or swap the bombers for fighters (broadswords are always nice) and the LRM's for Salamanders.

Likewise gemini's are pretty great given that they actually come with a decent cargo capacity and share a somewhat similar role to the mule in letting you haul while still being worth the deployment cost.  They're perfectly fine if you keep them escorting large ships to help with anti missile/fighter issues (normally don't want them too close to the front, but they aren't totally worthless).

Yes if you're doing a minmax fleet the goal is going to be drovers/astrals, and the game doesn't really do scarcity well (even ignoring commissions it's easy to get better ships), but the selling point of the condor/Gemini is dirt cheap fighter platform that's easy to acquire/spam.  And unlike frigates it's a lot more successful as long as you have some sort of frontline and handle your starting orders right, as the actual ship isn't often exposed.
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Thaago

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2019, 01:03:11 PM »

No, I'm not ignoring out of combat factors... Drovers aren't really that much rarer than Condors if you are checking the Persean League and Tri-tach systems, instead of Hegemony/Pirate. They also don't cost all that much more. Meanwhile, their out of combat stats are really really terrible (I would like their out of combat stats to significantly improve, so that they become more akin to a combat freighter).

I would love for Condors to be competitive, but they just aren't.
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Serenitis

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2019, 01:37:43 AM »

Condor is fine as it is. They're not meant to be "competitive", they are a fallback option for any faction that doesn't have access to industry. And an easily accessible (and ulitmately disposable) entry point into carriers for the player.
It's part of the base_bp package, so like every other ship in there it is lacking in some way.
Basically it's the bare minimum for getting fighters into combat, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, Herons are good.
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Locklave

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Re: Carriers
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2019, 09:36:18 AM »

Condor is fine as it is. They're not meant to be "competitive", they are a fallback option for any faction that doesn't have access to industry. And an easily accessible (and ulitmately disposable) entry point into carriers for the player.
It's part of the base_bp package, so like every other ship in there it is lacking in some way.
Basically it's the bare minimum for getting fighters into combat, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Also, Herons are good.

I think they need a buff, even if they are non competitive it'd be nice it they weren't so terrible. I'm not suggesting they be anywhere near a Drover, just that they do their job better. Maybe make it 10-20 speed faster?
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