Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6

Author Topic: More Realistic  (Read 11108 times)

gmansawesome

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
More Realistic
« on: October 19, 2019, 04:31:13 PM »

Some suggestings that I think would make the game more realistic:

Commissions - Why does a faction give you tens of thousands of credits in return for literally nothing? I feel like there should be different kinds of commissions,  completing monthly trade runs for a faction or fill a pirate frigate quota. All of these would have to be gained first by doing barely-profitable trade/escort/military missions for a specific faction to prove yourself reliable and gain a factions trust.

Buying ships - First of all, there should be a bigger distinction between military-grade vessels and combat-capable civilian ships. Military-grade vessels should have more guns, bigger guns, better shields, better armor, have more
Fighters(Carriers), and be actually flux-efficient. With this line drawn, military-grade ships shouldn't be sold on the open market. In real life, there are military weapons for sale. You can buy a gun, and some old military equipment or vehicles. However, you can't buy a modern tank or an aircraft carrier. Why should things be different for factions in starsector? There is a greater need for civilian personal protection now that the peaceful era of the domain is gone, so in the 200+ years since civilian ships have been modified with weapon mounts and older military vessels such as condors and wolfs are permitted to be sold to the general populace. However, if you've gained enough trust from a faction you can buy real military ships from their military market, or just buy one from the black market for a very high price. Capitals should also never be sold on the black market, they're just too big.

Scanning - Why should scanning be restricted to stop-and-search encounters after you've done trading on the black market? Wouldn't the best time for scanning be when a fleet is docking to a station or planet? More authoritative factions such as the Hegemony, Persean League, and Sindrian Diktat should do scans whenever you dock, though with less likelihood to find something than if they were actually onto you. Ships could also be modded to have a special hiding spot where scanners will never reach, which you can use by placing the item into a highlighted spot in the cargo/inventory tab.

More specialized resources - There should be more planet/sector-specific resources like the voultarian lobster, to make the galactic economy more complex and diverse-feeling.

Combat deployment - Deployment points and choosing which ships will engage in combat makes no sense to me. There's plenty of space in space, and fleets are tiny. There is more than enough space for all the ships in a fleet to engage in combat, and even if you have ships you don't want engaged in combat they should at least be IN the actual battle, just behind your combat ships. This can create more complex and larger battles, with you having to defend your weaker cargo/fuel ships or crippling an enemy fleet by destroying theirs. All your ships are deployed in a battle, and if you lose you are destroyed. In the current game, if you only deploy your combat ships and lose, all your civilian ships get pursued and destroyed afterward anyways. The result is the same, only less realistic. Also, you can no longer defeat bigger and more powerfull fleets because they don't have enough deployment points to use their full strength, that's very silly. The scale of the map size for battles can also change based on how many ships are involved.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 12:47:25 AM by gmansawesome »
Logged

Elementony33

  • Ensign
  • *
  • Posts: 4
  • Doin yo mom
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2019, 08:07:51 PM »

I think the combat deployment thing is because too many ships and projectiles might get it laggy and stuff, but all of this would be pretty lit, especially the economy stuff
Logged

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2019, 09:32:40 PM »

In general, realism is not a good driver of balance. The goal of the game is to be fun, not realistic. The fact that it's a 2d game set in space (which is 3d) and the physics are all much more similar to naval combat than space combat already makes the game very far from a space sim. There's not much point in trying to make it realistic when it already clearly isn't.

That being said:
Commissions are probably going to be changed when late game/factions gets developed more (remember this is an alpha). I definitely agree that commissions are something that can be improved upon, and I've suggested stuff along these line myself before. I think they should be tied to some responsibility to defend a certain system or colony.

I would say civilian ships are already very clearly inferior to military ships. Pretty much everything you asked for is already true, except maybe 'more guns', but in starsector, flux stats determine firepower a lot more than the number of mounts so I would say military ships have more firepower in pretty much every case.

As to availability on markets, I generally agree with you, but it has been discussed extensively, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some changes in the works to address what is available on which markets. It's still not clear that it should be compared to earth though, since it is much easier to manufacture military technology in starsector and the governments are far weaker and more decentralized. I think the current black market would be fine if there were more penalties/risks for trading, and the open market definitely doesn't have much in the way of military tech already.

I think scanning too much would just make smuggling unviable and gameplay comes before realism. Scanning more wouldn't really make the game more fun in any way unless more ways to interact with it were added.

Battle size is for computational reasons. You can increase it in settings, and further increase it by editing settings.json. I don't think many veterans actually play on the default combat size.

Invasions are not a part of the base game, they are added by mods.
Logged

Mordodrukow

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2019, 11:39:59 PM »

Lol. Realism in such game means very boring gameplay, cause maneuvering in a space costs too much, beam weapons absolutely irrelevant, because defender can simply spray some gas to disperse the beam, and lot more other problems...

Realistic game about space even if you accept some advanced techs means mostly economic simulator. Not Cowboy Beebop game.
Logged
Spoiler
[close]

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2019, 11:52:56 PM »

Try 'Children of a Dead Earth' for a realistic space combat game. It has nothing in common with starsector.
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 4112
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2019, 01:11:38 AM »

Commission complaints are more common lately. Good.
While buying better ships on the open market is already a pretty boring experience (and the gun selection there is underwhelming as well), it makes sense once you think about how easy it is to acquire military hardware. You can beat enemy patrols and salvage their ships and gear. You won't have as much of it as if you were to buy it, but it's still there, and a determined player can get all the ships he wants without buying anything better than a Venture. It's hard to say "player shouldn't be able to buy this stuff on open/black market", when it's not that hard to take it for yourself from someone else.
Scanning every time you dock with transponder on would make patrol scans a bit redundant, but it would have the advantage of making the player want to turn his transponder off when smuggling. Would be interesting to check out.
I don't want more resources, if all they are going to do is look pretty, as is the case with many current resources.

As for battlesize: combat size already gets bigger with bigger fleets, simply because you can deploy more ships. Beyond that, the issue is that battlesize isn't there for no reason: not every computer can handle massive battles. And since not everyone can afford to deploy everything from all fleets, the game has to be designed around fleets not being able to deploy everything at once, which means there can't be battles where you are forced to deploy anything.
You can change battlesize in the in-game settings and also in Starsector\starsector-core\data\config\settings.json file. Search for "maxBattleSize".

DatonKallandor

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2019, 04:29:21 AM »

Commissions - Why does a faction give you tens of thousands of credits in return for literally nothing?

Because just existing in the sector has a big upkeep, which only grows as a player gets more powerful. And even if the commission holder doesn't actively engage in actions that support the commission giver, they're at the very baseline, still a fleet that is hostile to the correct factions. Having one more fleet that the other side has to worry about flying around is worth the peanuts the commission pays out. Tens of thousands of credits is not a lot of money for a faction.
Logged

BringerofBabies

  • Lieutenant
  • **
  • Posts: 98
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2019, 07:44:56 AM »

Commissions - Why does a faction give you tens of thousands of credits in return for literally nothing?

Because just existing in the sector has a big upkeep, which only grows as a player gets more powerful. And even if the commission holder doesn't actively engage in actions that support the commission giver, they're at the very baseline, still a fleet that is hostile to the correct factions. Having one more fleet that the other side has to worry about flying around is worth the peanuts the commission pays out. Tens of thousands of credits is not a lot of money for a faction.

And for a real life example of this type of thing, it is similar to the concept of a "fleet in being" - merely having such a fleet, even if it isn't actually seeing action, is a threat to enemies that they must consider.
Logged

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2019, 04:07:08 AM »

As to availability on markets, I generally agree with you, but it has been discussed extensively, and I wouldn't be surprised if there are some changes in the works to address what is available on which markets. It's still not clear that it should be compared to earth though, since it is much easier to manufacture military technology in starsector and the governments are far weaker and more decentralized. I think the current black market would be fine if there were more penalties/risks for trading, and the open market definitely doesn't have much in the way of military tech already.

I disagree, given that I keep finding plenty of elite miltiary ships on the open market. Far, FAAAR too many.
While you normally wouldn't find ANY military ship available to the public, I am fine with SS having a few weaker/older ones here and there.

But buying things like cruisers and battleship on the open market? No. They shouldn't even be available on the black market. You can't really smuggle a friggin battleship, and those things are not something you can make in your own garage. Not only are blueprints had to find and guarded, but you need heavy industry and resources for it.
Which makes it even funnier that a planet that cannot produce a pristine ship can restore it to full value.
Logged

bobucles

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2019, 09:42:41 AM »

Quote
You can't really smuggle a friggin battleship, and those things are not something you can make in your own garage.
Size is rarely an obstacle to whether or not something can be smuggled. Where there's a will, there's a way.

It might be interesting to have rare "auction" events pop up as random missions. They could provide a source of rare items like blueprints, weapon caches or even exotic/rare space ships. I don't think anyone would really ask where the rare things came from or why the serial numbers are filed off, but there will always be buyers for such curiosities.

The "auction" mechanic allows rare things to stay rare, but at the same time the player isn't stuck with personally scouring every single planet for rare deals every time the market changes.

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2019, 01:10:26 AM »

Quote
You can't really smuggle a friggin battleship, and those things are not something you can make in your own garage.
Size is rarely an obstacle to whether or not something can be smuggled. Where there's a will, there's a way.
[/quote]

Ok, how would you smuggle a Nimitz carrier?

Because surely, any produced unit is tracked and has a serial number. They are far too big to pass undetected, and far too valuable to simply ignore when one goes missing. This isn't a small arms shipment that goes missing (and even that get heads turning).
You can't approach any port with it. In SS terms, with a stolen battleship you wouldn't be able to approach a planet.

Any ship of that size will HAVE to be registered. And yours either won't have a valid registry or you will have to use a fake one and that is not bloody likely to work, when every single ship will be accounted for.

An Onsalught with a serial number SN-ons000075 would have been registered with the hegemony 5th fleet, under capt. Thorne. You're clearly not Thorne, and that fleet you're part of clearly isn't the 5th Hegemony fleet.
So even if you COULD steal such a ship, you would not be able to sell it or buy it in normal places.
A secret ship dealer somewhere in hyperspace or on some remote rock, perhaps.

The only time military warships are sold are in 2 cases:
a) to other countries and governments, and only friendly ones that are considered no danger
b) to private individuals/companies, usually lower-grade stuff or completely stripped hulls with any sensitive equipment/weapons removed. The russians sold one of their old aircraft carrier to be turned into a hotel/casino, IIRC.

Quote
It might be interesting to have rare "auction" events pop up as random missions. They could provide a source of rare items like blueprints, weapon caches or even exotic/rare space ships. I don't think anyone would really ask where the rare things came from or why the serial numbers are filed off, but there will always be buyers for such curiosities.

The "auction" mechanic allows rare things to stay rare, but at the same time the player isn't stuck with personally scouring every single planet for rare deals every time the market changes.

This is actually a good idea.
Such auctions could be held by different factions, with different things offered depending on your standing with them AND their general stance/ideology. A highly militaristic faction would restrict higher-level weapons/ships, but would offer lower ones in abdundance. Pirates on the other hand might be willing to trade anything, but their offering would be mostly salvaged ships and truly good ships would be rare. Corporate factions might be willing to trade more advanced things compared to militaristic factions, but they would also rip you off.

Getting access to such auction would require a bar event and good standing with the faction. They could be held at a randomly selected location.

If you want to go even deeper, the merchant fleet could be generated that would carry all of the hulls, and it would wait at the location together with a few minor buyer fleets. You could even try to attack and rob the gathered, but that would loose you invite to future auctions.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 01:13:29 AM by TrashMan »
Logged

bobucles

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2019, 06:37:46 AM »

Quote
Ok, how would you smuggle a Nimitz carrier?
Space is big, and the local sector is anything but stable. There's no shortage of pirate activity to make it possible. Use your imagination, that's what space games are for. But if we're going to go Ocean's 14 on it...

Find a ship that's already getting decommissioned. Cook the books on it, replace Nimitz cube with a pile of generic guns and drover scrap. Proceed to tuck it away in an asteroid somewhere. Space is big, it won't be easy to find. Auction off the coordinates.

intrinsic_parity

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 3071
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2019, 02:33:55 PM »

You can sneak in with your transponder off to trade while you have capital ships, so presumably you could leave one there without anyone noticing which is the same as smuggling it in. If they don't notice your entire fleet illegally arriving at or leaving the planet, they won't notice you leaving one ship on the planet either.
Logged

TrashMan

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1325
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2019, 01:04:43 AM »

Quote
Ok, how would you smuggle a Nimitz carrier?
Space is big, and the local sector is anything but stable. There's no shortage of pirate activity to make it possible. Use your imagination, that's what space games are for. But if we're going to go Ocean's 14 on it...

Find a ship that's already getting decommissioned. Cook the books on it, replace Nimitz cube with a pile of generic guns and drover scrap. Proceed to tuck it away in an asteroid somewhere. Space is big, it won't be easy to find. Auction off the coordinates.

That's fantasy you're talking.
Space is big, but you are also very, very visible. And the sector being unstable doesn't change the fact that precisely BECASUSE it is unstable, everyone is on edge, suspicious and militarized.

Given the need for ships, are any getting decomissioned? How can you cook the books? The ship production is handeled by automated forges and blueprint chips. Serials are burnt in. And any faction is going to have a database of major military hardware.
Even if you could change the serial, what would you change it into? This isn't cracking your local game copy, this is serious stuff that will get cross-refferenced. If anything is ever remotely suspicious you will get looked into deeper.

So let's say you did manage to steal the ship from a scrpyard. You will not be able to bring into any port. Do you think I could sail in NY harbor with a Nimitz carrier stolen from the US nay? There isn't any amount of book cooking that can hide the fact that it clearly doesnt' belong to me. Moreover, military ships tend to dock in military harbors, not regular civilian ones. Thus, the black market selling ship on major planets makes no sense.

Auction on some hidden asteroid, perhaps. But again, you wouldn't be able to dock in any civilized port with a stolen capital ship on you.

Heck, if you ask me salvaging is currently garbage. It is instant (instead of taking days, as it should), and no one bats an eye. You'd think that the major powers would have S&R and recovery assets going with every major fleet. After all, who in their right mind would throw all those hulls away?

The way I would do it is that you get a timer depending on how many ships you are recovering (and their size, status, etc..).
Ships are recovered sequantially and you get a progress bar for each one. The process can be interrupted (and continued) at any time (in case an enemy fleet is heading towards you). Normally, you would have a speed penalty or a moment of immobility (simulating the time necessary to get the salvage crews and equipment back), but you can leave them behind in emergencies, which would loose you crew and machinery. Natually, good sensors would be important, since you want to detect hostiles as far away as possible, to give you plenty of time to recover salvage crews and accelerate away.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
    • View Profile
Re: More Realistic
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2019, 01:55:39 AM »

Heck, if you ask me salvaging is currently garbage. It is instant (instead of taking days, as it should), and no one bats an eye.
If salvaging is instant, why is there a cooldown for it?
It already takes several in-game days to pull salvage from debris. Why does that need to be increased?

As to why you get the "results" instantly - that's a gameplay abstraction. And a perfectly good one which is meant to help the game flow more smoothly.
This is a good thing because gameplay > realism.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6