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Author Topic: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed  (Read 3501 times)

Embolism

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Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« on: October 13, 2019, 12:43:02 AM »

I'm talking about the Phase Teleporter and the Recall Device.

The problem is what these two systems do to the ships they're on. They completely railroad otherwise interesting ships into very boring loadouts.

Recall Device:
Based on Blog posts and Alex's Twitter feed, it's clear that different types of fighters are meant to be used in combination to achieve synergistic effects. The Astral spits on all this by having a system that strongly encourages equipping mono-bomber loadouts. Highly disappointing when it's supposed to be the epitome of carrier gameplay.

Phase Teleporter:
Because of this system the Hyperion has undergone drastic nerfs to encourage the player not to play with it: it breaks a dozen flux conduits with every deployment and even when deployed it sputters out like a candle-flame within two minutes. When not deployed it chugs supplies like a logistics black hole. To add salt to the wound, the system encourages this supposed pinnacle of High Tech ship design to use Mining Blasters.

.....

My suggestion for the Astral is to replace Recall Device with 'Secondary Flight Command'. When activated, this system takes control of the squadrons in decks 4 to 6, and sends them to either attack a targeted enemy ship or defend a targeted friendly ship. If there's no target then it defaults to defending the Astral. This effectively lets the Astral split its squadrons to deal with two targets at once.

For the Hyperion... I don't know. It could have something boring like HEF or Phase Skimmer, or it could have something else that's unique. Something to do with flux manipulation, maybe; to emphasise its modular nature.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 01:43:21 AM by Embolism »
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Grievous69

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 01:30:53 AM »

If Recall Device was on a ship with 2 or maaaybe 3 flight decks then I'd say that's not too crazy, but as it is now, it pigeonholes Astral into one and only build which is a shame for a capital. If its system gets replaced with something weak, I'd like to see an OP increase so you can actually do something else rather than put best fighters on it and chill in the back.

As for the sad Hyperion, I fully agree its system is cancer and that it can't have a good impact on gameplay. AI is either gonna be horrible with it and never worth the price or if somehow AI gets improved for it to have pinpoint teleport accuracy then it would be cancer to fight against. That said I don't think Phase Skimmer is fitting, we already have a ton of ships with that. It's gonna be something unique and strong so it can actually be called the best frigate in the game (in terms of power not logistics ofc).
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TaLaR

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2019, 01:39:33 AM »

That's a huge nerf to Astral - replacing a powerful system with very situational convenience (best case, in practice it would probably hurt AI more than help).  If this was implemented, I'd just use Herons instead of Astral for strike carrier role.

Hyperion has unique niche, but it's not supported by either piloting AI (no clue to how use teleporter) or opponent AI (no clue to how to counter it). And obviously hobbled by terrible PPT and logistics profile. As well as lack of compatible weapons (Mining Blaster isn't really good, it's just less bad than alternatives).
Best case, I'd rather see AI better adapted to both using and countering it (+improved logistics profile, since shield bypass won't be as easy anymore).
Worst case, it could simply get some boring ship system and massive buffs to compensate loss of teleporter (so that Afflictor will become the last bastion of proper piloting fun).


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Embolism

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 01:51:24 AM »

If Recall Device was on a ship with 2 or maaaybe 3 flight decks then I'd say that's not too crazy, but as it is now, it pigeonholes Astral into one and only build which is a shame for a capital. If its system gets replaced with something weak, I'd like to see an OP increase so you can actually do something else rather than put best fighters on it and chill in the back.

I'd say remove the built-in Advanced Optics and refund the Astral 25 OP (or more) to spend as it pleases.

A 2-deck carrier with Recall Device sounds good actually. Finally fill the High Tech non-capital carrier niche, and with only 2 decks it's not that jarring to only use a single fighter type.

That's a huge nerf to Astral - replacing a powerful system with very situational convenience (best case, in practice it would probably hurt AI more than help).  If this was implemented, I'd just use Herons instead of Astral for strike carrier role.

If a hypothetical ship had a system which instantly wins the battle when pressed, removing it would also be a 'huge nerf'. The bottom line is the Recall Device encourages a very boring way to outfit Astrals that's antithetical to how Alex wants Carriers to operate.

Fix the underlying problem, the number-crunching (i.e. how does it compare to the Heron) is easy to tweak.
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Grievous69

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 02:12:24 AM »

A 2-deck carrier with Recall Device sounds good actually. Finally fill the High Tech non-capital carrier niche, and with only 2 decks it's not that jarring to only use a single fighter type.
I'm all for new ships but you just described the Scintilla. Yeah you won't be able to get it without the skill but it seems weird to have 2 copies of a ship, one attainable without the skill, and one with.

EDIT: Here's an interesting thing I just noticed about carriers. So low-tech is all about dakka and armor, and they have Mora and Legion, midline is speedy fragile ships with also decent firepower, and they also have 2 carriers, Drover and Heron. And now high-tech which is actually focused on carrier heavy fleets has only Astral, a rare and expensive ship so the fleets usually have Drovers and Herons. Now I'm totally ok with them having midline ships but why the hell shouldn't they have something unique?
P.S. I'm not counting Odyssey since it's a 45 DP ship with just 2 bays.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 02:22:57 AM by Grievous69 »
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Plantissue

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2019, 03:20:13 AM »

A single Astral, with no other source of fighter bays in your fleet does better with 1 broadsword and 5 bombers than just purely 6 bombers. If your only source of fighters is an Astral it is nearly always a mistake to give it 6 bombers instead of adding a fighter, since there is no distraction to prevent the bombers and their missiles being shot down along the approach.

People do have 6 bombers loadouts, because in all examples I have seen, they have filled their fleet with loads of fighters, usually totally more fighters than bombers, such that the entire battle is filled with fighters anyways, thus guaranteeing that whatever the Astral will target will be distracted by fighters and decoy flares anyways. And that is only to be expected since on the way to an Astral, you will likely collected lots of the smaller carriers along the way. When that condition isn't fulfilled, the 6 bomber Astral does poorly. Nobody complains for instance that you can have Herons with 3 bombers, instead of 2 bombers and a fighter, if you have sufficient source of decoy flares. Is it a bad thing that people can use synergistic effects of multiple ship hulls to provide specialist rather than generalist loadouts?

2 or 3 deck with recall device is basically the same "problem". You would be incentivised even more to put purely bombers on it as even a single non-bomber is a significant chunk of firepower removed, half or a third of bomber firepower, whilst for an Astral it is only a sixth of bomber firepower. If all bomber loadouts is to be considered a problem on a ship, then 2 or 3 deck carriers simply encourages more of that "problem".

Btw, I am assuming what you mean by mono-bomber loadouts is 6 bombers which can be different types of bombers, like 4 longbows and 2 Tridents, not literally 6 of only one type of bomber.
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Vind

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2019, 06:17:33 AM »

Astral is slow and unarmored - without system it is useless. This ship needs ability to suddenly recall all strike craft for defense as even destroyer can wreck it fast. Hyperion is so rare i almost never encounter one in the game before im bored with current run. It cant really do much because AI runs away from every shot.
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Megas

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2019, 06:20:59 AM »

Before Astral got Recall Device, it was awful.  It was basically a weaker and slower Odyssey with more fighter bays.  Now, Astral is good, very good, but still weaker than Paragon.

Hyperion is not good enough today with gigantic endgame fights.  Too high DP, too little PPT.  Afflictor can do its job more cheaply.  Hyperion had more use when claiming objectives were useful.  (I am glad objectives are useless.  Objectives need to go.)

Quote
And now high-tech which is actually focused on carrier heavy fleets has only Astral, a rare and expensive ship so the fleets usually have Drovers and Herons. Now I'm totally ok with them having midline ships but why the hell shouldn't they have something unique?
Heron is practically a high-tech ship with midline colors.  I like to see a blue Heron (TT) that is a mild upgrade over standard like XIV ships are to low-tech and Falcon/Eagle.

Also, a proper frigate carrier, something with one bay (for any LPC) and little else.  So far, the only frigate that is considered as a carrier by the game is the Shepherd.  A new one LPC frigate ship would be useful since the redesigned carrier skill will have a limit of six bays before bonuses get reduced.

Quote
People do have 6 bombers loadouts, because in all examples I have seen, they have filled their fleet with loads of fighters, usually totally more fighters than bombers, such that the entire battle is filled with fighters anyways,
Six bomber loadouts also work when the rest of the fleet are close to the enemy and tank for the bombers.
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Amoebka

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2019, 08:31:34 AM »

Isn't Tempest techinally a high-tech frigate carrier? You can't change LPCs, sure, but if Shepherd counts, so does Tempest.

Frigates also tend to be fast, and you don't really want your carriers to be fast - that's a very uninteractive and antifun design. Tempest and Shepherd are limited by their fighters' short effective range, which wouldn't be the case if you could use any LPC.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 08:34:37 AM by Amoebka »
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Megas

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2019, 09:24:51 AM »

Isn't Tempest techinally a high-tech frigate carrier? You can't change LPCs, sure, but if Shepherd counts, so does Tempest.

Frigates also tend to be fast, and you don't really want your carriers to be fast - that's a very uninteractive and antifun design. Tempest and Shepherd are limited by their fighters' short effective range, which wouldn't be the case if you could use any LPC.
Tempest is (I think) classified as a warship.  Check 'frigate' and 'carrier' filters when viewing blueprints.  Shepherd may be the only ship the game lists.  Playing with filters is handy when trying to select ships with the arcane priority system, along with the warship/carrier/phase triangle for fleet doctrine.

Player does not want enemy carriers to be fast.  Player probably wants his carriers to be fast.

Not all frigates are very fast, some are a bit sluggish for their size (without Safety Override or Unstable Injector).

Shepherds' drones have fairly long range, but there are weak enough to be ignored by just anything beyond early game.

A slow (for its class), low-endurance frigate (no more than 180 PPT) with a single LPC should not be that bad.

For example, maybe a high-tech frigate, with one bay, a single synergy mount (for PD or missiles), and maybe active flares for its system (for missile defense).
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Sinigr

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2019, 12:37:30 PM »

I'm talking about the Phase Teleporter and the Recall Device.

The problem is what these two systems do to the ships they're on. They completely railroad otherwise interesting ships into very boring loadouts.

Recall Device:
Based on Blog posts and Alex's Twitter feed, it's clear that different types of fighters are meant to be used in combination to achieve synergistic effects. The Astral spits on all this by having a system that strongly encourages equipping mono-bomber loadouts. Highly disappointing when it's supposed to be the epitome of carrier gameplay.

Phase Teleporter:
Because of this system the Hyperion has undergone drastic nerfs to encourage the player not to play with it: it breaks a dozen flux conduits with every deployment and even when deployed it sputters out like a candle-flame within two minutes. When not deployed it chugs supplies like a logistics black hole. To add salt to the wound, the system encourages this supposed pinnacle of High Tech ship design to use Mining Blasters.

.....

My suggestion for the Astral is to replace Recall Device with 'Secondary Flight Command'. When activated, this system takes control of the squadrons in decks 4 to 6, and sends them to either attack a targeted enemy ship or defend a targeted friendly ship. If there's no target then it defaults to defending the Astral. This effectively lets the Astral split its squadrons to deal with two targets at once.

For the Hyperion... I don't know. It could have something boring like HEF or Phase Skimmer, or it could have something else that's unique. Something to do with flux manipulation, maybe; to emphasise its modular nature.
It is just yours problem. -1 And i use just somo bombers, astral is best carrier for me, do not want such system like astral has, do not use it, it is it's goal, bombardment, if you do not understand it, do not ruin my game, hi there... So, ----.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 02:17:51 PM by Sinigr »
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Sinigr

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2019, 06:18:22 PM »

My suggestion is to make some fixed kit of systems for all ships, so player should have possibility to choose one of proposed systems while is docked. Like manuvering jets or ammo feeder for conquest, and so on, So, some ships should be able to support different roles and gameplay.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 06:25:56 PM by Sinigr »
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Morrokain

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2019, 07:00:20 PM »

My suggestion is to make some fixed kit of systems for all ships, so player should have possibility to choose one of proposed systems while is docked. Like manuvering jets or ammo feeder for conquest, and so on, So, some ships should be able to support different roles and gameplay.

That would make game balance even harder if not impossible for a small dev team. You would have to balance ship systems in categories of strength (like weapons) and probably even then they would have to cost OP for that to be even remotely possible from a game design perspective. What other system would stand up to Phase Teleporter, for instance? You can make a case for AI using other systems, sure, but I'd rather make the Phase Teleporter less strong and reduce the logistics penalties of the Hyperion.

I added a charge up time to the teleport to make it weaker to the player, for instance. The AI is not great with it, unfortunately, but this change at least seemed to help even the odds a bit between the two.

Cool idea, though, it sounds great on paper.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 12:25:39 AM by Morrokain »
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Sinigr

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2019, 07:20:19 PM »

My suggestion is to make some fixed kit of systems for all ships, so player should have possibility to choose one of proposed systems while is docked. Like manuvering jets or ammo feeder for conquest, and so on, So, some ships should be able to support different roles and gameplay.

That would make game balance even harder if not impossible for a small dev team. You would have to balance ship systems in categories of strength (like weapons) and probably even then they would have to cost OP for that to be even remotely possible from a game design perspective. What other system would stand up to Phase Teleporter, for instance? You can make a case for AI using other systems, sure, but I'd rather make the Phase Teleporter less strong and reduce the logistics penalties of the Hyperion.

I added a charge up time to the teleport to make it weaker to the player, for instance. AI is just a terrible with it.

Cool idea, though, it sounds great on paper.
Make different deployment cost of similar ships with different systems.
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Harmful Mechanic

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Re: Teleporting systems ruin the game - and should be removed
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2019, 07:34:08 PM »

I think teleports are fine but they do seem to work better on larger ships (Recall Device, for example, is fine). On something the size of the Hyperion, the issue is that it's hard for a player to control. Why use a Hyperion when I could use a Medusa, a much more stable platform with more fitting options?

(I think a frigate carrier with a single modular bay could work - you'd have to make sure it was relatively OP-poor - but it would need a hullmod to reduce the leash range for fighters; 50%, so 2000su from the standard 4000. That's about where the Shepherd is, mechanically.)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 07:35:56 PM by Soren »
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