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Author Topic: Ways of giving smaller fleets deployment bonus without lugging Paragons around  (Read 2447 times)

Vind

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Phase ships is ideal deployment weights. Good fuels storage and biggest DP per hull class. Im tugging 4 Dooms just for this task.
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Czyrek

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In short, fighting ridiculous piles of enemies is not a "super specific and easily avoidable" situation in the current game, it's just what you end up dealing with late-game.

Something I hope we can tweak smaller in the future
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Plantissue

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I think that people should post what kind of battle size they are playing under and what kind of deployment point the are talking about. For instance large bounties can scale to 640 Deployment Points and I've seen 350 DP Ordos. Expedition fleets seem to vary greatly in number of fleets and in DP count, and I barely even look at them so I'm not really sure about those. However it is entirely possible to be swarmed by multiple ordos and sub-Ordos, making for grueling 1000+ DP fights that last so long that you might completely deplete Capital CR twice.

But taking the 640 DP bounties as an example, the kind of game you have at 300 battle size is entirely different from a 500 battle size. Assuming you have a 300 DP fleet, at 300 battle size, you have 120 DP to deploy, you have to destroy 460 DP worth of enemy fleet, so to destroy the enemy fleet 2.5 times over before you can get your first reinforcement assuming no losses. Meanwhile you have 180 DP, which is greater than your deployed fleet, almost entirely wasted till the CR runs down which it will, and you have to retreat your ships before being able to deploy more, creating even more of a disadvantage as you have even less ships to face their +50% more ships. If your fleet is less than 300 DP is is even more onerous.

Now take a battle size for 500. You have 300 DP, they have 640 DP. You deply 200 DP, they deploy 300 DP. You have to destroy 340 DP worth, so to destroy the enemy fleet 1.13 times over before you can get your first reinforcement, assuming no losses.

Simply but, the larger your battle size is put to, the less incentive you have to make really large DP fleets in order to counter the disadvantages for the DP battle size system gives you. If you play at 300 battle size, (200 battle size was even worse), there is an absolute incentive to simple pack the most fuel/supply efficient source of DP so you don't have to suffer what feels like a most unfair and almost insurmountable disadvantage. For instance at 300 battle size, I found my carefully tailored 300 DP fleet unable to defeat these 640 DP bounty fleets, but if I changed the battle size to 500, I can win without losing a single ship.

For the 350 DP remnant Ordos, which as long as you can separate them from other remnant fleets roaming around, it isn't nearly as bad for 300 DP, and it's not much of a problem for 500 battle size. But that's around the size where you will immediately see that battles get a lot easier, just for the cost of of obtaining and upkeeping some DP that you may never use. It doesn't have to be a paragon. It could be, as suggested, a bunch of phase ships, or a bunch of Eagles that you will never realistically use, because once you aren't suffering by having an opponent that has +50% more ships than you, fighting battles get a lot easier and faster.
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Megas

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300 map is practically two or three against whatever the AI throws at the player.  Worst case, 3v3, something like three capitals against three of their Onslaughts.

I rose map size to 500 because I got sick of multi-round endurance (dueling) matches akin to Mortal Kombat or Marvel vs. Capcom.

But taking the 640 DP bounties as an example, the kind of game you have at 300 battle size is entirely different from a 500 battle size. Assuming you have a 300 DP fleet, at 300 battle size, you have 120 DP to deploy, you have to destroy 460 DP worth of enemy fleet, so to destroy the enemy fleet 2.5 times over before you can get your first reinforcement assuming no losses. Meanwhile you have 180 DP, which is greater than your deployed fleet, almost entirely wasted till the CR runs down which it will, and you have to retreat your ships before being able to deploy more, creating even more of a disadvantage as you have even less ships to face their +50% more ships. If your fleet is less than 300 DP is is even more onerous.
Yes!  At 300 map size, I edge-camp so I can retreat ships that run out of PPT.  At 500 map size, I may not need to worry about PPT, and can fight normally.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2019, 06:21:15 AM by Megas »
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Q8

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Isnt this whole topic pointless, since nobody can find any issue with nothing beyond deep-lategame, and deep-lategame isnt implemented yet?
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Plantissue

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What do you mean? You don't see a problem with how battlesize allocates DP? It's not just a problem when encountering overly large DP fleets. It's part of a problem including having a part of a fleet that never sees combat, escalating bounties being too hard, because you haven't reached the fleet to equalise yet, the incentive towards Capitals. It also means that estimating how powerful an opposing fleet is much more difficult, depending on what size fleet you have. People can solve it partially by simply changing battlesize options to their own benefit, but then you run into the problem of different game experience in regards to gamplay and balance.
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bobucles

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I wasn't fully aware that maximum deployment depends on your existing fleet size. I figured it was more a case of the admiral having a finite ability to command in the chaos of battle, with more and larger ships pushing the fleet's organizational limits. It might make more sense to attach deployment limits to player level, with higher level players able to deploy more ships at once.

Q8

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@Plantissue
I dont. But Ill bite, at least for the sake of an argument.

The issue is, that i dont think you thought this topic through.
Look, you found something that looks like a problem, and for the sake of an argument, lets say, that you are correct. But you never bothered to go one step further, and think about the implications of fixing it.

Let's see, one point at a time:
1.There has to be a limit.
Listen, It would be best, if there was no limit at all. But sadly, this is an imperfect world that has its limitations. 500 already strangles the game like hell. Maybe you could code the game to use more processing cores, but ouh boy, thats a lot of work. And this is a small project all things considered.

So if 1 = true, then:
2.You have to be able to carry more DP than you can deploy,
because if you dont, then Combat readiness is void, and should be scraped/redesigned. Ergo skill nodes that upgrade it, should be scraped/redesigned, and ship mods, and even map movement, storms, emergency burn and much more. Since alot of strings are connected to combat readiness.

So, if 1 = true and 2 = true, then:
3.There has to be a mechanism that allocates DP,
because if there isnt, and DP's are simply split in half, then there is no advantage to having a bigger fleet, ergo, you could fly with nothing but 2 Onslaughts + maybe a gryphon(100DP whole fleet), and win with multiple ordos at once, since the game isnt capable of wining with a human 1:1, and after the first wave going down, you would just camp the spawn. And also, it would be pointless to be smart on the galaxy map, and pick off fleets 1 by 1, not just run at multiple opponents bunched up.

So at the end of the day, the only thing that you could potentially do, is to come up with a different way of making a split, but is there a different way? All i can think of, is a bunch of horrible ideas that would make it even worse, like making skills, or level of the main character affect it.
Hmm, maybe you could give the player something like a bonus DP's for deploying small ships, and not capitals? But then, its only fair, if bigger fleets have the upper hand...
« Last Edit: October 06, 2019, 11:13:02 PM by Q8 »
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Plantissue

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Sorry, but I read "I'll bite" and stopped right there. As if somehow my thoughts are insincere or a "troll" in some form. Perhaps if you rephrase your post to be more respectful, I'll consider reading it.
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Wyvern

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2.You have to be able to carry more DP than you can deploy,
because if you dont, then Combat readiness is void, and should be scraped/redesigned. Ergo skill nodes that upgrade it, should be scraped/redesigned, and ship mods, and even map movement, storms, emergency burn and much more. Since alot of strings are connected to combat readiness.

So, if 1 = true and 2 = true, then:
3.There has to be a mechanism that allocates DP,
because if there isnt, and DP's are simply split in half, then there is no advantage to having a bigger fleet, ergo, you could fly with nothing but 2 Onslaughts + maybe a gryphon(100DP whole fleet), and win with multiple ordos at once, since the game isnt capable of wining with a human 1:1, and after the first wave going down, you would just camp the spawn. And also, it would be pointless to be smart on the galaxy map, and pick off fleets 1 by 1, not just run at multiple opponents bunched up.

So at the end of the day, the only thing that you could potentially do, is to come up with a different way of making a split, but is there a different way? All i can think of, is a bunch of horrible ideas that would make it even worse, like making skills, or level of the main character affect it.
Hmm, maybe you could give the player something like a bonus DP's for deploying small ships, and not capitals? But then, its only fair, if bigger fleets have the upper hand...
Your point two doesn't follow, and isn't relevant.  CR matters even if your fleet is small enough that you can deploy the whole thing.

Your point three also doesn't follow.  The situation you suggest - battle size cranked down to the minimum, deploying a small fleet - is a situation that can happen anyway.  Splitting the battle size evenly, right now, simply requires that you cart around a few hundred DP of extra warships; making it split evenly by default removes that requirement, but doesn't otherwise change how such a battle would go.  And, well, if you fly with two Onslaughts and a Gryphon... no, that'd be a terrible idea.  Sure, you'd probably nuke the first two, maybe three or even four hundred deployment points of the enemy.  And then the Gryphon would be out of missiles and CR, and the Onslaughts would be out of CR and armor, and whatever was left of the enemy fleet would just kill you.  (And that's assuming that the enemy didn't lead off with a bunch of high mobility frigates that could just surround and kill those Onslaughts outright.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Q8

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CR matters even if your fleet is small enough that you can deploy the whole thing.
ehh.. This topic, is not about 'under limit' fighting, and thats why i wrote it like that, but okay okay, maybe i should have been more precise. Im sorry. Let me try again.
The main mechanic that CR creates is forcing rotations off/into the battlefield. But if you play under the limit, then CR is nothing but an arbitrary timer, since you wont swap a ship with 50%CR for a fresh one, for that +-5% to everything, since u dont have a fresh ship. But that is not a problem, because even if you had a bonus DP for a smaller fleet(as the topic sugests), you cant use it, since you have no ships in the back... Ye, there are few side reasons, like attrition in space, but that could be easily dumped into hull and would work the same.
Point 2 not only stands, but its stronger than i stated before, only i didnt bother to count all the reasons. What about noncombat ships for example?

But that doesnt matter really, since the deep lategame isnt implemented yet. I wrote it in the post before...

Listen, as i said, and that was the first point i made, that it would be best, if there was no limit. But that will not happen. So everything beyond that is damage control.
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