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Author Topic: Good AI controlled assistant ships?  (Read 10300 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2019, 04:14:57 AM »

Falcon(P) is the best player-piloted DE(-equivalent). Expanded Racks Reaper build lasts long enough for ammo-limit to only become a problem in multi-round combat.

Normal Falcon is somewhat low firepower for it's DP, but combination of high speed (slightly below 100 average with system), cruiser ITU range and medium ballistics allows to effectively kite enemies to death. It's one of relatively safe ships to give to AI.
I'd still prefer an AI Eagle if given choice though. AI just doesn't do as much as potentially possible with Falcon's extra 25 speed.
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Plantissue

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2019, 05:20:04 AM »

All this sounds confused by a very specific set of circumstances of a very specific rule laced tournament, with general good AI ships in the campaign. I suppose that's the problem when the title of the thread doesn't match what the opening poster writes.
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Modo44

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2019, 05:37:30 AM »

Imo the Medusa doesn't need PD[...]
Correct, but Burst PD Lasers specifically have good burst damage, and under 1 flux/damage cost. If you are not going for range, they supplement the Medusa's main weapons nicely. Also, as an "assistant" ship, it needs to be able to take out threats to other friendlies.
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Plantissue

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2019, 06:10:50 AM »

The falcon only need to be able to mount 2 HVD's and it's good to kill anything smaller then it's self outright.

Anything larger isn't supposed to be killed by a single falcon, so no worries.
Most AI ship is supposed to be able to killing anything smaller than itself and isn't supposed to be able to fight singly with anything bigger than itself. Damned with faint praise indeed.
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Igncom1

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2019, 07:07:55 AM »

Agree to disagree.  ;D
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Sunders are the best ship in the game.

majorfreak

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2019, 07:40:13 AM »

well, falcons are great in a group, especially enforcers because of the flak cannon support. they pair well off each other for a hegemony low rent team. remember, this is about assistance ships not "omg they suck solo"
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Thaago

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2019, 10:05:49 AM »

Wait, people think the Falcon is bad? It is faster than every destroyer except the Medusa, but has cruiser grade range boosters so outranges them. It has burn 9 so doesn't slow down a destroyer fleet, but has better defenses than any destroyer. It has access to kinetic + phase beam/ion beam combo. The only downside of Falcons is low raw DPS compared to Hammerheads and Sunders because those ships have offense booster systems, so they are better at crippling cruisers/capitals than killing them, and should be paired alongside a ship with more Bang.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2019, 10:45:59 AM »

Falcon is good early to mid game but it falls off late game along with every destroyer. They just die too easily against late game threats. Falcon might fall off a bit less but it's closer to a destroyer than a cruiser IMO.

I would say if a destroyers are still relevant in a fleet, then a falcon is probably better, but if a destroy is not good in a battle, the falcon is also not good.
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Plantissue

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2019, 12:34:12 PM »

I don't think Falcon is bad. I just think what Ingcom1 wrote makes it sound absolutely awful, needing a specific loadout with rare weapons so it can do what every ship in the game would do naturally.

I once made a fleet where the combat component was of mostly Falcons, as I was under the obsession that all ships in my fleet must have at least burn 9 (and with +1 burn with skill 3 Navigation) at the time. Falcons lack firepower for their DP, but they make up for that in survivability. The main thing about Falcons I find is they are weirdly survivable, despite their massive shield circle. People like to compare Falcons with Destroyers, but I think they should be compared with Cruisers. Compared to Destroyers they are actually really fast and vastly more survivable, but with lesser direct firepower, but with amazing support energy weapons, (if you can find Ion Beams!) The most important thing when outfitting a normal Falcon, is to avoid putting an Hullmod on it that isn't Dedicated Targeting Core or Integrated Targeting Unit. Make use of the higher limit than Destroyers on Flux Cap and Vents.

I did all sorts of funny stuff with Falcons including SO Falcons which were suprisingly good. A fleet of them would mix 2 KE ballistics with some 1KE and 1 HE ballistic weapons, otherwise you will have too many HE if you try for 1KE and 1 HE. I think 30% HE is about right. The awkward weapon layout means that the energy mounts should only be used for long range support. A fleet of Falcons is a fleet of grav beams. That's fine as it wards off fighter and frigates alike. Destroyers are outranged and outfought. Cruisers are slower and die from localised superiority. Eagles are a bit of a problem and Capitals are a bit of a problem, so you have to try to avoid fighting them and in my case with a burn 9 fleet you can.
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xyzeratul

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2019, 05:45:10 AM »

All this sounds confused by a very specific set of circumstances of a very specific rule laced tournament, with general good AI ships in the campaign. I suppose that's the problem when the title of the thread doesn't match what the opening poster writes.
I guess I should clear my question:

 I am in the mid to late game, 3 plantes, building a fleet, trying to be a main player between other factions,  I can build really big, top tier capital ships, Conquest, Astral, Legion, Odyssey and Onslaught, or Cruisers like Doom, Eagle, Falcon, Heron and Mora.

I usually piloting big non carrier ship like Onslaught or Paragon, but big carriers can be good even driven by AI, so no problem for me.

But I feel like I need some small, fast ships to assist my fleet in PD, cap a point or do harassment, using big ships to do these feel like a waste and they are usually bad at these job(try watch a heron or Doom AI ship cap a point u will know), and I don't want to control it myself, so I need these small ship with some good loadout can be good in hands of AI.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2019, 08:01:22 AM »

The AI is just generally bad at capturing points. In my experience it will not attempt to cap until all enemies in the area are dead, regardless of their threat.
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Plantissue

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #26 on: October 01, 2019, 08:10:42 AM »

In that case:

You never really need to cap a point. If your fleet is superior, it will end up taking those points anyways unless your entire fleet is nothing but slow ships. If it is inferior, it will end up losing those points anyways. There's barely any middle ground and if you have the skills which does the same thing, the effects of them are minimal in comparison.

The best ships for harrass and assist in PD is just another big ship you can build like your Conquest, Astral, Legion, Odyssey or Cruisers like Doom, Eagle, Falcon, Heron. They can be their own PD. All carriers are essentially range 4000 PD or harrass depending on configuration, with the bonus that they are replenishable in a way that frigates and destroyers are not. Though I suppose it would be the carriers that need the support. I guess Omen and Tempest and telling it to escort can be useful too. There's no real need to use them though, unless you happen to have less than 20 DP to use.

Actually that would make an interesting discussion. Which would be better? 6 Conquests, or 5 Conquests, each with a Tempest Escort? What about omens as escort? Orders?
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xyzeratul

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2019, 09:01:14 AM »

In that case:

You never really need to cap a point. If your fleet is superior, it will end up taking those points anyways unless your entire fleet is nothing but slow ships. If it is inferior, it will end up losing those points anyways. There's barely any middle ground and if you have the skills which does the same thing, the effects of them are minimal in comparison.

The best ships for harrass and assist in PD is just another big ship you can build like your Conquest, Astral, Legion, Odyssey or Cruisers like Doom, Eagle, Falcon, Heron. They can be their own PD. All carriers are essentially range 4000 PD or harrass depending on configuration, with the bonus that they are replenishable in a way that frigates and destroyers are not. Though I suppose it would be the carriers that need the support. I guess Omen and Tempest and telling it to escort can be useful too. There's no real need to use them though, unless you happen to have less than 20 DP to use.

Actually that would make an interesting discussion. Which would be better? 6 Conquests, or 5 Conquests, each with a Tempest Escort? What about omens as escort? Orders?

because in the later stage of this game, it feel more like a RTS game, the safe and boring way is carrier spam, at least AI carrier can do a decent job, if their number is up to some level, they can take care of anything, I guess I am looking for other option mostly because I don't like using carrier myself and would like see less carrier in my fleet. ::)
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goduranus

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2019, 09:16:05 AM »

I think objectively the best support ship is some sort of carrier with Thunder that keeps all the enemies disabled, and let your warships quickly finish them off.

Vind

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Re: Good AI controlled assistant ships?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2019, 09:04:40 PM »

Beam wolf with unstable injector and 300 flux dissipation. AI can run from everything in it and beams still got plenty of range.
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