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Author Topic: Some issues with stations  (Read 2706 times)

Farlarzia

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Some issues with stations
« on: September 28, 2019, 04:39:37 PM »

Hiya - I've found some issues, particularly with high tech stations, that I couldn't find anyone else documenting.

Generic station issues
Something I've noticed in relation to all stations, is that the AI struggles to retreat and vent properly in the presence of a hostile station - I often see ships back off, thinking they're safe, despite the fact they're still being shot at, and vent in place, which can be lethal, especially as they'll do this multiple times in a row when trying to attack.

The AI also has a hard time knowing which parts of a station to attack. Extremely often I'll see the AI decide it's more important to take down the struts on a midline station, instead of the weaponized modules which are currently attacking them, much to their detriment. This also happens often with high tech stations, though with low tech stations this issue is much less prevalent.

I'm sure this one has been mentioned before, but I'll include it anyway - Ships set to escort a station will just sit idly by as the station is assaulted by large enemy forces on the other side, making no efforts whatsoever to assist it in this regard.

The AI autofit for stations seems to heavily favour the default variant, high tech stations refuse to use anything other than ion beams in the medium slots, despite the fact that both phase lances and pulse lasers were prioritised over them during construction - similarly this also happened for several other weapons around the station.
A suggestion for this would be to add stations under their own heading in the doctrine section, as people often want a different set of weapons and/or fighters on their stations to be prioritised compared to ships, as well as this section listening more to the player's prioritisation.

High Tech Station Issues
The first issue I noticed is that one of the Broadside modules small weapon mounts is incorrectly a missile slot, instead of an energy slot (the default loadout tries to put a PD laser in the slot, as well as it's mirror slot being energy). This also seems to cause some issues with the AI autofitting this slot, as I wasn't able to get stations to equip anything but Salamanders in said slot.

Secondly, on the same Broadside modules, both missile slots are left empty on the default variant. This follows through into the actual game, where stations will refuse to put anything on those slots, leaving them empty.

Thirdly, the Star Fortress fighter module of the high tech station seems extremely averted to use its ship system.  I've never seen it be used in combat, even under the most idealistic of circumstances, where it's ship counterpart, the Astral, would be. (i.e. all its bomber wings have used their payload, and are returning to the station and no direct threat to the module is happening.).

Fourth, compared to the other two stations fighter modules, the High Tech fighter module is missing the Fighter Chassis Storage Hullmod, which may be intentional as it gains a ship system over them, but worth mentioning anyway in case it's not.

Midtech Station Issues
The station rotates too fast for it to be able to properly get many of it weapons on target, leading to the station being massively less effective. Adding advanced turret gyros as a built in Hullmod helped tremendously in this regard.

While not an issue, I was curious for the inclusion of heavy ballistics integration as a built in hullmod, as it seems to serve no purpose.

Edit: Fixed it saying Atlas instead of Astral.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:53:27 AM by Farlarzia »
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Alex

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2019, 04:53:20 PM »

Thank you for the write-up! (Oh, hey, I thought your name looked familiar from waaaaay back...)

Fixed issue with the missile/energy slot type, and the hangar module missing chassis storage.

As far as escorting AI: I'm not seeing that, but by default, the enemy AI will actually assign a "defend" order behind the station, and trickle some escorts to the station, since usually having all the ships escorting it would result in a mess - ships getting in each other's (and the station's) way, etc. So they'll look to be sitting behind the station but they're basically in reserve, waiting to replace any escorts that get taken down. Could this be what you're seeing?

As far as station loadouts: it'll use your current doctrine, not the one that was in place during the station's production.

... let me move this to Suggestions, actually - the clear bugs are now fixed (thank you again!), and the rest is either more suggestion-y or might result in more discussion than is ideal for the the Bug Reports subforum.
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SCC

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2019, 03:33:18 AM »

I would like to back the midline station rotation issue: it should have a built-in unique hullmod that increases turret turn rate significantly, as I'm not sure if even ATG would stop Gauss Cannons from missing all the time.

Grievous69

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2019, 03:47:23 AM »

Yuuuuup, it fits the midline theme of glass cannons as it doesn't have the best armor/hull nor shields.
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Farlarzia

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2019, 01:28:43 PM »

That was a quick response.
Surprised you remember me, it's been a few years - I've recently dove back into the game after seeing Ssethtzeentach video and the excellent progress that'd be been towards the game.
I suppose I'll elaborate some more on a few of the gripes/ issues/annoyances I've had with stations.

I'll expand upon the Escort behaviour problems I have experienced.
In the game, the player will currently often want to engage massive fleets attacking the players planets personally, as the stations in battle end up being vastly more powerful than they are for auto resolving a fight. When the player then joins the battle to assist the station, the logical thing you'd want to do is support the station, and escorting the station appears to be the most logical way to do this - surely your ships will protect the flanks of the station and/or try and assist the front of the station as well? This isn't really what ends up happening.

Spoiler


[close]
As you can see, my ships are set to escort the station, and it's under attack from a huge enemy force, and yet my frigates are content to sit behind the station without trying to help in any way at all, despite the huge frontal attack. Having to place a defend order, instead of an escort order, for ships to defend the station ends up being counter intuitive for people,
Also of note in that screenshot is the station is using ion beams and phase lances for the mediums, despite the fact they're not prioritised in my doctrine, with the only prioritised mediums being Harpoon MRMs, the Pulse Laser and the Heavy Blaster. The  missile slots mentioned in the beginning post are also empty.
Here's a closeup showing this in more detail. I have slightly modified the station with the weapon mount type fix and Fighter Chassis hullmod, but no other modifications.
Spoiler
[close]

I also observed  the fighter module for the entire battle, and took the liberty of taking some screenshots of situations where using fighter recall seems self explanatory but for some reason it refuses to do so.
Spoiler



These are just 2 of the many situations during the battle in which the Recall Device should have been used - the AI only used it once during the entire battle against 14 capital ships.
[close]
Overall the AI regarding using the Recall Device is way to frugal, refusing to use it if even one fighter gets overloaded and doesn't use it's payload, and the other  7 bombers successfully did so. This often results in most if not all of the fighters getting shot down trying to return.

Finally, something that I forgot to bring up in the initial post is the Star Fortress frigate drone system. Simply put, they're awful. Due to the AI's tenancy to massively assault from the front, and the fact that they follow a strict path they can't deviate or retreat from, means they'll rotate right into this huge ball of enemies and instantly die without achieving anything. The High Tech Star Fortresses drones are the only exception to this, as they have Flux Shunt and Fortress Shields, making them incredibly tanky, but even their incredibly durability often isn't enough and they perish. If they manage to survive going through the enemy force, they'll then be completely useless until they rotate back around, seeing as they rotate too far out to be able to provide any PD support against missiles or fighters that might be attacking the back of the station.

Allowing the Drones to be able to have some level of free roam and intelligence might actually allow them to have some kind of effect on the battlefield, instead of their current situation where they provide little more than a few seconds of distraction.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 01:43:23 PM by Farlarzia »
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Alex

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 06:22:10 PM »

I would like to back the midline station rotation issue: it should have a built-in unique hullmod that increases turret turn rate significantly, as I'm not sure if even ATG would stop Gauss Cannons from missing all the time.

Ah, I don't think I've tried it with Gauss Cannons - made a note to take a look.


I'll expand upon the Escort behaviour problems I have experienced.
In the game, the player will currently often want to engage massive fleets attacking the players planets personally, as the stations in battle end up being vastly more powerful than they are for auto resolving a fight. When the player then joins the battle to assist the station, the logical thing you'd want to do is support the station, and escorting the station appears to be the most logical way to do this - surely your ships will protect the flanks of the station and/or try and assist the front of the station as well? This isn't really what ends up happening.

Spoiler


[close]
As you can see, my ships are set to escort the station, and it's under attack from a huge enemy force, and yet my frigates are content to sit behind the station without trying to help in any way at all, despite the huge frontal attack. Having to place a defend order, instead of an escort order, for ships to defend the station ends up being counter intuitive for people,

I see - made a note to check this out; this makes sense. I think some of my testing here was prior to re-working the escort behavior.


Also of note in that screenshot is the station is using ion beams and phase lances for the mediums, despite the fact they're not prioritised in my doctrine, with the only prioritised mediums being Harpoon MRMs, the Pulse Laser and the Heavy Blaster. The  missile slots mentioned in the beginning post are also empty.
Here's a closeup showing this in more detail. I have slightly modified the station with the weapon mount type fix and Fighter Chassis hullmod, but no other modifications.
Spoiler
[close]

Do you happen to have a save handy where I could check this out, by chance?

One possibility is that it didn't have time to update the loadout - it's not actually instant (though it really should be); currently it can take up to 3 days, or until the economy gets refreshed by e.g. visiting a colony.


I also observed  the fighter module for the entire battle, and took the liberty of taking some screenshots of situations where using fighter recall seems self explanatory but for some reason it refuses to do so.
Spoiler



These are just 2 of the many situations during the battle in which the Recall Device should have been used - the AI only used it once during the entire battle against 14 capital ships.
[close]
Overall the AI regarding using the Recall Device is way to frugal, refusing to use it if even one fighter gets overloaded and doesn't use it's payload, and the other  7 bombers successfully did so. This often results in most if not all of the fighters getting shot down trying to return.

I'll be making some adjustments to Recall Device for the next release; will check it out then. It does have a massive flux cost, but I can't tell from the shots if that's being an issue here or not.


Finally, something that I forgot to bring up in the initial post is the Star Fortress frigate drone system. Simply put, they're awful. Due to the AI's tenancy to massively assault from the front, and the fact that they follow a strict path they can't deviate or retreat from, means they'll rotate right into this huge ball of enemies and instantly die without achieving anything. The High Tech Star Fortresses drones are the only exception to this, as they have Flux Shunt and Fortress Shields, making them incredibly tanky, but even their incredibly durability often isn't enough and they perish. If they manage to survive going through the enemy force, they'll then be completely useless until they rotate back around, seeing as they rotate too far out to be able to provide any PD support against missiles or fighters that might be attacking the back of the station.

Allowing the Drones to be able to have some level of free roam and intelligence might actually allow them to have some kind of effect on the battlefield, instead of their current situation where they provide little more than a few seconds of distraction.

Hmm - I did fairly extensive testing with those and they make a decent difference; I don't think it's as bad as you're describing. They certainly get taken down first, but they do *something* - and it's not like they need to be amazing. It's meant to be the initial layer that gets peeled away first.
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DaviBones

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2019, 09:43:01 PM »

Just want to throw in my 0.02ยข about escort behavior:

I really like the current escort behavior, and use it extensively -- Usually on relatively durable, fast frigates with kinetics that can protect the ship in question's backside and supplement its PD (incidentally, Centurions, Monitors, Tempests, and Omens make incredible escorts for this usage). Pivotal to this usage is the fact that the escort stays behind the ship it's escorting -- often charging in to help against frontal threats would just get the frigate killed in short order. We were talking on discord, and Farlarzia and others made the valid point that they want the escort to protect the target more proactively (such as body blocking when the target overloads or needs to vent flux), and I agree that this would be very useful in some circumstances, but I wouldn't really want to sacrifice the current behavior to get that.

Ultimately, it would be nice to have both -- Perhaps two separate commands, such as "guard flank" and "assist," with tooltips to explain the difference. Or perhaps it could be tied into officer aggresiveness (and, again, explained in the tooltip for "escort").
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 10:38:59 PM by DaviBones »
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Histidine

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2019, 04:39:54 AM »

(Slightly) old suggestion thread relevant regarding escort orders.
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Plantissue

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2019, 05:37:17 AM »

I've seen the AI struggles to retreat and vent properly in the presence of a hostile station problem a few times. Mainly ships seem to retreat to a set distance, say 2000, without taking into account of what weapons can hit them or not. So sometimes, like in the presence of a staion, they are still within range, and sometimes against some cruisers for instance, they are several hundred units out of range before thinking it is safe to vent despite a higher speed and far away from any danger.
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Farlarzia

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2019, 02:06:42 PM »

Do you happen to have a save handy where I could check this out, by chance?

One possibility is that it didn't have time to update the loadout - it's not actually instant (though it really should be); currently it can take up to 3 days, or until the economy gets refreshed by e.g. visiting a colony.
Sure - here's the link to the save in question: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Tjz-oURLqks2feO97M-yFU-qXxMHC2y3
The Fighter Module started using the Heavy blasters, not sure what changed there, but the Broadside module remained the same.
I had some mods installed on this save, but nothing that should effect the campaign in such a way. All of the mods should be available on the forum apart from Captains Log and More Officer Skills , which can be found in the Unofficial Starsector Discord, under the #mod_updates channel. Dram (A) from DaRa was just a stripped down version of Disassemble Reassemble for personal use, left with only the Dram (A), so using the original mod should work.

I'll be making some adjustments to Recall Device for the next release; will check it out then. It does have a massive flux cost, but I can't tell from the shots if that's being an issue here or not.
In both those Screenshots the Fighter Module wasn't under direct attack and had 0 flux. I'd transferred to the modules using devmode to better monitor what was going on, but module was left in autopilot mode.

Hmm - I did fairly extensive testing with those and they make a decent difference; I don't think it's as bad as you're describing. They certainly get taken down first, but they do *something* - and it's not like they need to be amazing. It's meant to be the initial layer that gets peeled away first.
They just felt very underwhelming based on all the hype their description gave them in game, and considering it's part of the final upgrade for stations. The way enemy fleet sizes tend to go my from experience, is that stations are either assaulted by a midsized fleet with maybe a capital or two and some cruisers, or a 'oh whack that's 6 capitals :o' sized fleet. Against the former, the station doesn't really need any support to beat such ships, and will handily bat them away (unless it's the players fleet), and against the latter the enemy has such overwhelming firepower the anything but the absurdly tanky high tech drones is swatted aside at the start of the fight. On both ends of this scale, the low tech and midline drones don't really feel like they contributed to the fact the station existed, as they either survived but the station was already powerful to defend the threat anyway, or they died and didn't make much of a difference.
I think the reason for this is because they're given a destroyers weapon loadout / stats but are expected to be be able to contribute in a fight where the only thing that will threaten the station is multiple capital level threats, and against these threats the low and midline drones are sitting ducks as they're pulled right in front of these huge threats, without being able to do anything about it.

(Slightly) old suggestion thread relevant regarding escort orders.

The suggestions you wrote for Escort behaviour as well as the additional commands match what I was trying to suggest perfectly. Although off topic from this posts original point / discussion, I think that the screen command in particular sounds excellent - putting escort on civilian ships is often useless as they'll thinking something else is more important as the civilian ship is pounded to death right next to it.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2019, 02:13:16 PM by Farlarzia »
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Alex

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2019, 10:34:10 AM »

Ahh, assumed the savegame was vanilla since I didn't see anything obviously modded - thank you anyway, and for the additional info as well.

I see what you're saying as far as the drones; I guess I just don't see it the same way. I did spend a lot of time testing them; more powerful drones make the station way, way too strong, and I still do think you might be underestimating them a bit - even the limited time they do last makes a big difference in the initial clash, which is often the most important part.

(Slightly) old suggestion thread relevant regarding escort orders.

Yep, I remember! Still have some TODO notes from that.

I do also like the idea brought up here of basing some of the behavior here on personality, but, we'll see. It feels like the sort of thing that needs to be messed with a lot to arrive at something satisfactory. E.G. the current behavior works pretty well for a certain type of escorting, and that took quite a bit of tuning...
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bobucles

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2019, 10:49:15 AM »

I can see two different major schools of thought when it comes to escorting.

In system A, the escort serves primarily to protect a ship's flank. It doesn't have much interest in direct battle, and is more concerned with engaging extra targets that attempt to threaten the primary ship. For example a ship with a heavy frontal shield needs an escort to protect its flanks, so it can continue focusing on the front. That could mean shooting at enemy frigates or intercepting missiles. It's a much more passive and defensive kind of escort.

In system B, the escort and primary ship are joined towards engaging a common target. Both ships pool their resources to the assault, with one ship jumping in and maybe even body blocking the other ship when it gets overwhelmed. It's a much more aggressive kind of escort and doesn't concern itself with protecting the ally's engines or flanks.

Perhaps passive/aggressive NPC personalities are good enough for escorts? A cautious commander would try to protect their ship, while an aggressive commander tries to fight with their ship.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 10:53:28 AM by bobucles »
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Alex

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2019, 10:54:44 AM »

Yeah, maybe - the way I'm currently thinking about it, which might change after actually trying things, is that this is largely a tactical consideration. That is, you'd often want an escort to switch between these two modes. Facing a bunch of frigates? Just guard the flank. Attacking an isolated enemy? Move in and help. So it seems like something where a steady officer always guards the flank (so there's an option of having that sort of committed, passive escort), while anything more aggressive will make the call situationally, might work...

Plus automatically doing this, regardless of personality, when a combat ship is escorting a non-combat one or a dedicated carrier.
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Farlarzia

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2019, 11:03:21 AM »

Although not Vanilla, that save only has QoL mods (Fancy shaders, more music, more skill options to pick for Officers, able to make a log in game if I found a good system etc) apart from the single added ship. All of the game behaviours were left explicitly untouched for this save, as I was seeing how the 'base' game had come along.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2019, 11:06:24 AM by Farlarzia »
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Alex

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Re: Some issues with stations
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2019, 12:11:20 PM »

Ah - gave it a quick go and it crashes with just DaRa enabled; probably too much of a pain to try to get that sorted - will be easier to reproduce a similar situation in vanilla. Thank you, though!
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