Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

Author Topic: Phase ship AI improvement  (Read 999 times)

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Phase ship AI improvement
« on: September 19, 2019, 10:53:27 PM »

Now, the obvious endgame for phase frigates is omni-shield bypass maneuvers, but I'm not asking for that much here. This topic is for some of simpler issues.

1) Phase ship are too easily distracted by fighters and missiles. This is the big one.
2) They often fail to properly to align rear-shots even against slower front shielded targets incapable of resisting (there are cases of this in Drover video).
3) Do ships take missile's speed vector and turn rate/ acceleration into account when dodging them? Doesn't seem to be the case.
I mean dodging a missile by backpedaling buys you much less time than letting it pass through you.

Drover made as harmless and easy to exploit for Afflictor as possible without leaving it completely unarmed (yep, Drover wins anyway):

Vigilance with ECCM-less Pilums (they are practically static obstacles from phase ship's perspective, yet it spends inordinate amount of time dodging them):
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:58:18 PM by TaLaR »
Logged

goduranus

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 925
    • View Profile
Re: Phase ship AI improvement
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2019, 11:27:48 PM »

I was also gonna make a post on this,

AI controlled Afflictor won't fire its torpedoes

Video: Lots of opportunities to torpedo a flamed out Eagle, but rarely does it fire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHASFyuOIDo
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 07:22:10 AM by goduranus »
Logged

Morrokain

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Megalith Dreadnought - Archean Order
    • View Profile
Re: Phase ship AI improvement
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2019, 07:08:26 PM »

1) Phase ship are too easily distracted by fighters and missiles. This is the big one.

I honestly think this is a bit of a problem for the AI in general, but it is definitely more apparent with Phase ships. Even when assigning them "Eliminate" commands while under "Full Assault" fleet orders, they tend to be really timid and want the "perfect" set up to actually engage at times.

I think this is partly an attempt to mimic player precision and avoid losing them since they are so expensive, but on the flip side it makes them feel a little underwhelming since they can sometimes feel like more of a "threat by presence" rather than actual battle contributors- meaning the AI does react to them and that can in-and-of-itself be useful.
Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2794
    • View Profile
Re: Phase ship AI improvement
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2019, 11:04:23 PM »

Yeah, Cobra used in my example pretty much can't hit an Afflictor ever. Even without taking it's phase cloak into account, it's simply too fast and maneuverable. Yet instead of rightly considering them minor nuisance and proceeding to destroy the carrier, Afflictor is near 100% distracted.

At the same time shielded ships also manage to undervalue fighters as well. Take a decent build of Hammerhead vs sim Condor with Broadswords and Pilums. AI will keep trying and failing to push through fighters, letting them easily surround it. Hammerhead could win by more actively engaging the fighters to drain replenishment (backpedaling to prolong approach + use of AAF), then easily kill the carrier once fighters are thinned enough.
Logged

Morrokain

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 2143
  • Megalith Dreadnought - Archean Order
    • View Profile
Re: Phase ship AI improvement
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2019, 01:21:06 AM »

^ True, but I also think that is because the AI in that case would- in theory- be aware of its anti-fighter potential and speed in order to even be able to back-pedal and perform that tactic. That is more of a player thing to set them apart and provide the skill = power concept. That is mostly because then- in return- the AI would also have to know when that is not the case; like when a vessel is slower or has less anti-fighter potential- resulting in that tactic being detrimental. So, it's kind of the "specific case vs general case" AI quandry coming into effect there.

Myself, I would rather the AI perform the "assumed case" of fighters and missiles being handled by PD and therefore leave the player the incentive to ensure that is actually true (so the player is still in control and adapts through learning that PD is important). Then, like in the case of Aggressive officers granting ships a greater ability to ignore danger under player specifications, give Timid/Cautious officers the ability to "assume the worst" and perform the current timid behavior around fighters and missiles for specific ships that would actually have that weakness but could provide support in other ways- and then let the player do the math in between.

The thing about phase ships in particular that I personally think brings out the issue of a base-timid AI is that those types of vessels are inherently assumed to be alpha-strike warships that utilize speed and increased relative time manipulation through phase cloak to close-in and deal high upfront burst damage at the cost of reduced defensive measures- other than the same drawn-upon resource pool as said alpha strike(flux)- to evade (rather than mitigate) damage as a unique mechanic.

The point is, at some point they have to commit and utilize their assumed alpha-strike potential to overwhelm their opponent and deal a crippling- if not killing- blow. They seem to do this very well in a fleet scenario with allies flanking and having a positional advantage, but are unwilling to do this at even odds that could potentially risk the destruction of an expensive vessel.

But, it is in those very situations that phase ships feel underwhelming because they often fail to take advantage of their alpha-strike strength and only bait the AI into acting defensively to their
relative positions on the battlefield. It's not always a bad thing, but it can at times make phase ships feel underwhelming in a fair fight. I would rather that alpha-strike power be felt and occasionally curse my luck that a phase ship couldn't get away with its phase evasion over mostly never (but still sometimes!) losing one but rarely seeing its power. (As a concept rather than an actual example. Fair fights aren't particularly common so experiences probably vary greatly from player to player in that regard.)
Logged