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Author Topic: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely  (Read 3232 times)

dis astranagant

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Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« on: September 13, 2019, 06:32:20 AM »

I just did some testing in which I fired 3 reapers at test dummy with onslaught stats then followed it up with a thumper burst.   Instead of the expected ~1060 damage I did ~440. The only way I can figure out to make that result is if it's calculating the damage reduction based on doing 25 hit strength vs the residual armor on the bare hull and then multiplying that by the actual 100 damage.  (25/(25+87.5))*100 = 22.3 * 20 = 446
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Kran_du_sud

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2019, 06:59:56 AM »

Damage against hull was supposed to use the following formula

Damage = Damage per shot * (Damage per shot / (Damage per shot + 5% of total armor))

Thumper and Hellbore should do this kind of damage against the hull of an Onslaught

thumper 100*(100/(100+87.5))=53.3

hellbore 750*(750/(750+87.5))=671


Actual damage is

Thumper 444/20= 22.2        Hellbore= 708

The correct formula seems to be Damage = Damage per shot * (Damage per shot against armor / (Damage per shot against armor + 5% of total armor))

thumper100*(25/(25+87.5))= 22.2

hellbore750*(1500/(1500+87.5))=708.6

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Alex

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2019, 07:36:18 AM »

Right, yes, damage reduction by armor is always based on that shot's damage vs armor.
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dis astranagant

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2019, 05:29:49 PM »

Yeah, but we're talking about shooting bare hull.
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Alex

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2019, 05:42:22 PM »

There's no such thing as "bare hull", it's always protected by 5% of the armor, even if the armor is no longer taking the damage directly. It would be weird not to base armor damage reduction on the damage vs armor. Furthermore, frag damage vs the hull of heavily armored ships getting toned down is the main point of this mechanic.
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Plantissue

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2019, 09:45:53 AM »

That some the armor always remains could be better communicated. For instance I know some armour must remain due to skill descriptions and general testing at "armourless" ships in combat, but it shouldn't need to be found by carefully reading and testing otherwise people will be puzzled and think something has gone wrong with the game.
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mvp7

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2019, 10:29:00 AM »

That some the armor always remains could be better communicated. For instance I know some armour must remain due to skill descriptions and general testing at "armourless" ships in combat, but it shouldn't need to be found by carefully reading and testing otherwise people will be puzzled and think something has gone wrong with the game.
This and other details of armor mechanics are explained in the Armor tooltip in refit screen.
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Plantissue

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2019, 10:48:33 AM »

So there is! I never realised. There's even tool tips for Top Speed and Hull!
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Alex

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2019, 10:55:50 AM »

They're a fairly new addition (not sure if 0.9.1a or 0.9a, but not before that for sure), so they're pretty easy to miss especially if you're used to those elements not having tooltips.
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mvp7

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2019, 11:05:43 AM »

How is the armour calculated for various hull mods and skills though? I presume the damage mitigating armour value of final 5% would be counted like this:

[(base(ship armor) * 1.1(armored turrets) * 1.5(evasive action) + 150(impact mitigation) + 100 or 200 or 300 or 400(heavy armor)]*0.05

Do Target Analysis, Impact  mitigation and Evasive action only affect the amount of damage bled through to the hull or do they also effect the damage done to the armor itself?
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Alex

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2019, 11:34:04 AM »

Right, it's 5% of the total value after all modifiers.

Stuff like "+50% to hit strength for damage reduction purposes only" affects the damage reduction from armor, which affects both armor and hull damage.
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mvp7

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2019, 11:37:21 AM »

Stuff like "+50% to hit strength for damage reduction purposes only" affects the damage reduction from armor, which affects both armor and hull damage.
Ok, so those are really strong skills to have then. Will similar effects be scaled down with the new skill system?
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SCC

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2019, 12:50:17 PM »

Huh. I guess it means that even when shooting bare hull, it's still better to fire at it using weapons that are good against armour. With all the right skills, it might even double the effective hull points of, say, the Onslaught. I guess I was right to stack hull as well on those kinds of ships.
Impact Mitigation 3 probably doesn't work here, since it decreases damage against armour and not do anything for armour damage reduction calculation, does it?

mvp7

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2019, 01:18:23 PM »

Impact Mitigation 3 probably doesn't work here, since it decreases damage against armour and not do anything for armour damage reduction calculation, does it?
Stuff like "+50% to hit strength for damage reduction purposes only" affects the damage reduction from armor, which affects both armor and hull damage.
Doesn't this mean the damage reduction is specifically what the Impact Mitigation 3 effects? The only thing it doesn't effect is the amount of armor hit points.

Huh. I guess it means that even when shooting bare hull, it's still better to fire at it using weapons that are good against armour. With all the right skills, it might even double the effective hull points of, say, the Onslaught. I guess I was right to stack hull as well on those kinds of ships
I didn't even think of that. Does kinetic weapon really do less hull damage through the final 5% armour than a high explosive weapon with similar damage value does?
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Alex

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Re: Frag damage vs ships with stripped armor behaves strangely
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2019, 01:43:18 PM »

Impact Mitigation 3 probably doesn't work here, since it decreases damage against armour and not do anything for armour damage reduction calculation, does it?
Stuff like "+50% to hit strength for damage reduction purposes only" affects the damage reduction from armor, which affects both armor and hull damage.
Doesn't this mean the damage reduction is specifically what the Impact Mitigation 3 effects? The only thing it doesn't effect is the amount of armor hit points.

That's the one that says "20% less damage taken by armor" or something similar, right? New skills in the dev build so it's not trivial to check.

That one actually double-dips - it reduces the damage taken amount, but also the strength of the hit, meaning the armor mitigates that reduced damage more.

Huh. I guess it means that even when shooting bare hull, it's still better to fire at it using weapons that are good against armour. With all the right skills, it might even double the effective hull points of, say, the Onslaught. I guess I was right to stack hull as well on those kinds of ships
I didn't even think of that. Does kinetic weapon really do less hull damage through the final 5% armour than a high explosive weapon with similar damage value does?

Right, yeah. Kinetic and frag vs stripped armor - assuming low per-shot damage, especially - suffer the most damage reduction here. It's hard to say how much impact that has on effective HP because it depends on the weapon dealing the damage. The most extreme case in vanilla would iirc be the Vulcan - though it's still pretty effective vs stripped armor! It's just not in a place where a couple of wings of Talons can melt an Onslaught in a few seconds, which they could before the "minimum armor" mechanic was added.
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