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Author Topic: A plot to overthrow the late game.  (Read 4988 times)

Gwyvern

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A plot to overthrow the late game.
« on: September 10, 2019, 07:24:02 PM »

I would like to preface this by saying that what I am about to discuss would represent a lot of work for Alex, and may be divergent from his long term vision for this game. As such, I hold zero expectation that any of this be acted upon, but if he gleans even one good idea from my ramblings, then it will have all been worth it.

This all stems from the reality that Starsector has an inverse difficulty curve. Whether you like it or loathe it, the start of a campaign is often fraught with difficulty, while the end game can almost play itself, and most people end a run when they get bored, rather than due to reaching any kind of goalpost.

What I hope to lay out, is just one, out of many potential routes to alleviating this problem.

Admittedly, a fairly high-effort one at that.

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We have colony mechanics now, but as far as I am concerned, they seem to only be a momentary diversion aimed at providing more resources to the player. When a colony is first set up, it is relatively vulnerable, and requires protecting, but only minimal guidance. There are some tools to help it along, and you chose what it builds, but other than that, the colony exists as its own entity, functionally independent of the player, but feeding into the player's pockets. Once a colony has grown to a certain point, it essentially becomes invincible, hiding behind an iron curtain of megafleets and star fortresses, safely printing truckloads of money for the player to utilize. And what do they utilize this money on? More ships, more guns, more colonies to print more money.

Largely, what the end game consists of, is the same stuff that the early game consists of, except the player has a lot more resources at their disposal. They can choose to fight bigger fleets, sometimes bigger fleets come to them, but it all basically cancels out, resulting in the very late game being rather easy, and not that distinct from the early game outside of the fear of failure being almost entirely quashed by that point.

The crux of this supposition, is that a colony should not be a means to simply acquire more wealth, but instead should be a tool required to access the second half of the game.

Early colony gameplay should mirror early fleet gameplay in how totally outclassed you are by most of the parties at play. You just put on your bigboy shorts, and everyone else has been wearing bigboy pants for hundreds of years. And the colony itself should be akin to your first, tiny fleet.

For this to truly work, a lot will have to be done, some things merely need changed, but other things require improvements, and still others, entirely new mechanics. Hopefully I'll hit all the big ones below.

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- Requiring the player to actually pay for the majority of their fleets, investing in them should be a real investment down to the individual hulls, and lost ships should require replacement from the player's resources, automate every part of this that one can, but leave it open to micromanagement, because these fleets must be directible. They should not simply float about the player's systems unless that is what they are supposed to be doing. The player needs the ability to treat them like a resource that they can do other things with. Bring them along into the frontier (for whatever reason) Aid in the defense of your allies, or invade the systems of your enemies, whatever one can do with a fleet, the player should be able to do with a fleet operated by their colonies.

- A far more accurate strategic map that can be interacted with at both the hyperspace, and system levels, nominally access to hyperspace transponders would facilitate your ability to command from a distance, but the idea is that you should actually be commanding an operation at the fleet level, rather than just ordering it be so and letting scripted events handle the rest.

- A complete overhaul in the AI's ability to make strategic decisions, rather than say, Nexerelin simply having a faction pick a random hostile target to raid or invade every now and again, it will have to be able to factor in territory, geography, fleet positioning, intel, strategic value, economic value, etc, etc, all on a fairly constant basis, and the systems it gains or loses need to have a profound effect on its ability to wage a war like this.

- A proper political system that the player can interact with, that simulates and factors things other than the player's colony strength and use of AI cores, otherwise the decisions of the AI to attack, defend, or ignore you would seem entirely arbitrary.

- Dynamic AI factions irrespective of the player's involvement, meaning borders can shift, factions can die or expand, whether the player is involved in politics or not, otherwise you are playing a game with a foregone conclusion, being the only party capable of self improvement makes eventual victory a guarantee, and that doesn't make for very interesting gameplay.
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The TLDR of all this is: The second half of a Starsector campaign should play more like an RTS with a combat layer, rather than just being the same as the early game but bigger. Your first colony should be more like your starting Wolf class frigate on the grand stage of politics and war, rather than a seed one plants and nurtures until it grows into a beautiful, but static money tree.

All this would take the inverse difficulty curve and mix it up into something far more interesting, so that everything you accomplish during the first half of a campaign is simply the prelude to getting involved a far larger struggle that even the best captains can never be 100% prepared for.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 07:27:01 PM by Gwyvern »
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Alex

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2019, 08:42:23 PM »

Just want to say that I'm generally on the same page here - minus some specifics, to be sure (in particular, I'm not keen on nuanced politics, or particularly dynamic factions, though other things might be), but just generally.

Right now you start a colony, and that makes things easier for a time. Then it makes things harder for a time - raids, expeditions, etc - and then once you clear that hurdle, that's basically the "end" of the game. Ultimately, yes, colonies are meant to be tools that let you do things, as well as sources of trouble - but currently, both of these functions are fairly limited. In terms of the difficulty curve, though, I think this is the beginning of a "saw" pattern, which generally seems good - but it's just got the first couple of teeth right now, to take the analogy way too far.

I think a large part of this is adding endgame content, though I also want to look at some mechanics for fleet command type things - in particular, one of the things I can see is having "fleet operations" be a huge, virtually unlimited money-sink, that also lets you accomplish a lot more, this being the "tool" part - with colonies providing both the fleets and in large part the finances required to run them.

But, I don't want to commit to too much here - this is still on my "explore and try this out" list, rather than "totally 100% doing it". I think it would work well, but it's easy to be wrong about this kind of stuff. So, please treat this as speculation on my part rather than specific plans :)
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Gwyvern

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2019, 09:27:24 PM »

To carry this idea a little further, and to use your terrible analogy.

It might also help, if there was some kind of pressure for the player to clamor towards the next "tooth" of the saw, currently most people wait until they have a million credits and no urgent expenses before founding their first colony. I know from personal experience that it is reasonable to establish and maintain a colony with only 500k starting capital, and I imagine that its theoretically possible with even less. But since there is no real reason to establish one outside of wanting more money, people are free to take their time and do it only when it is most convenient, which is possibly a decent contributor for why the first few teeth on this saw are rather blunt, outside of what was already discussed.

That being said, I have absolutely no idea what an encouraging factor might look like, or how it would be balanced properly.

an old space RPG called Space Rangers (or more specifically, Space Rangers 2) the player couldn't establish colonies or anything, but they were constantly spurred to improve themselves because the greater galactic community was at war with an enemy that (in most difficulty settings) they could not beat if left to their own devices, but this might be a bit *too* urgent for starsector's format.

As this enemy advanced, parts of the game map would become effectively impassable, as entering them would mean contending with armadas of powerful ships all on your lonesome, and if you failed to do anything to drive them back, eventually your campaign would be bricked, prompting you to start a new one.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 09:30:18 PM by Gwyvern »
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Sundog

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2019, 10:08:03 PM »

I absolutely agree with the general goals of this suggestion.

It might also help, if there was some kind of pressure for the player to clamor towards the next "tooth" of the saw
I really like it when games do this well, but it's something that's very easy to mess up. Not to mention that many people absolutely hate that kind of pressure no matter what. I can see it working well for a hard mode, but I think it would put too many people off for it to be the standard.

SCC

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2019, 10:59:22 PM »

The TLDR of all this is: The second half of a Starsector campaign should play more like an RTS with a combat layer, rather than just being the same as the early game but bigger. Your first colony should be more like your starting Wolf class frigate on the grand stage of politics and war, rather than a seed one plants and nurtures until it grows into a beautiful, but static money tree.
I have asked Alex to make endgame RTS-like (probably more than once, since my memory isn't perfect), but he wasn't receptive of the idea. Based on that, my guess is Alex wants us to play a superhero in the last part, doing things no one can. That are more interesting than base smashing, that is.

Sundog

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2019, 11:32:01 PM »

Based on that, my guess is Alex wants us to play a superhero in the last part, doing things no one can.
Agreed. I think some sort of long-term endgame quest to avert a major AI threat is very likely. I think it would be amazing if such a quest would be fail-able, leading to branching endings that result in such drastic changes to the sector that they essentially unlock new game modes.
  • Apocalypse: Civilization has crumbled and AI runs rampant, turning the game into a post-apocalyptic struggle for survival.
  • Fractured Victory: The AI threat has been dealt with, but at the expense of throwing the sector into diplomatic turmoil, turning the game into Nexerelin.
  • Peaceable Victory: By unifying the factions against them, the AI have been brought low and driven into the mud, and the sector returns to the state of relative peace it was in before.

TrashMan

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2019, 01:43:10 AM »

in particular, I'm not keen on nuanced politics, or particularly dynamic factions,

So you're not keen on the things this game misses the most?
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mendonca

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2019, 03:18:11 AM »

in particular, I'm not keen on nuanced politics, or particularly dynamic factions,

So you're not keen on the things this game misses the most?

This is a complicated issue related to the fundamental scope of the game as well as being a matter of opinion as to whether this adds to the game.

Reading between the lines, I doubt Alex will want to elaborate further at this stage more than a vague 'i'm not keen on it' as I imagine it's entirely unclear as to whether doing this properly is either practical and will be fun; or could spell the untimely death of the development cycle due to a horrible cycle of scope creep throughout all the various aspects of the game.
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Tartiflette

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2019, 03:39:08 AM »

Also not "dynamic" in the sense you defined doesn't necessarily implies completely static. There could be predefined events that get triggered by certain conditions/timers and have wide scale impact on the sector and factions. It wouldn't require any finicky AI while making the setting evolve over a campaign.
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Histidine

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2019, 04:10:43 AM »

Would "more Elder Scrolls than Civilization" be a fair way of describing it?
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Megas

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2019, 05:39:12 AM »

Based on that, my guess is Alex wants us to play a superhero in the last part, doing things no one can.
Agreed. I think some sort of long-term endgame quest to avert a major AI threat is very likely. I think it would be amazing if such a quest would be fail-able, leading to branching endings that result in such drastic changes to the sector that they essentially unlock new game modes.
  • Apocalypse: Civilization has crumbled and AI runs rampant, turning the game into a post-apocalyptic struggle for survival.
  • Fractured Victory: The AI threat has been dealt with, but at the expense of throwing the sector into diplomatic turmoil, turning the game into Nexerelin.
  • Peaceable Victory: By unifying the factions against them, the AI have been brought low and driven into the mud, and the sector returns to the state of relative peace it was in before.
I also like...

Supreme Victory: All of the factions are dead.  No one is left to stop you from rebuilding and ruling the galaxy as you see fit... or destroying it... or just minding your business without death fleet #999 from yet another annoying nosy faction wanting to burn down your home.  Might involve Apocalypse without the AI running rampant, because you effectively won.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 05:42:28 AM by Megas »
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Alex

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2019, 08:29:17 AM »

So just in general, I have to be :-X about the details here, since that'd be getting into spoiler territory.

It might also help, if there was some kind of pressure for the player to clamor towards the next "tooth" of the saw
I really like it when games do this well, but it's something that's very easy to mess up. Not to mention that many people absolutely hate that kind of pressure no matter what. I can see it working well for a hard mode, but I think it would put too many people off for it to be the standard.

Right, yeah - I've been thinking about that a fair bit. What I have in mind is having this sort of pressure, and designing/balancing around it (since it's basically impossible to balance without it - if the player has infinite opportunity to prepare, just about anything short of an absolutely top-tier challenge can be trivialized), but also having this pressure be an option you can select - or not - during Sector creation. It feels like something where some people will be into it, and some people will really dislike it no matter what, and, really, a more "chill" game where you just kind of putz around and do things at your own pace seems like something that oughtn't be disallowed.

Reading between the lines, I doubt Alex will want to elaborate further at this stage more than a vague 'i'm not keen on it' as I imagine it's entirely unclear as to whether doing this properly is either practical and will be fun

Yep! Just have to see how all the endgamey thigns fit in together. E.G. a large amount of faction dynamism is not a *goal*, but it might come into being if it helps *another goal*, if that makes sense. Though I still don't think that'd happen. But, that's just talking about factions specficially behaving as 4x factions.



Also not "dynamic" in the sense you defined doesn't necessarily implies completely static. There could be predefined events that get triggered by certain conditions/timers and have wide scale impact on the sector and factions. It wouldn't require any finicky AI while making the setting evolve over a campaign.

Yeah, exactly.


Would "more Elder Scrolls than Civilization" be a fair way of describing it?

With the understanding that it's a spectrum, yeah, I think that's pretty fair.
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Sundog

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2019, 08:59:38 AM »

What I have in mind is having this sort of pressure, and designing/balancing around it (since it's basically impossible to balance without it - if the player has infinite opportunity to prepare, just about anything short of an absolutely top-tier challenge can be trivialized), but also having this pressure be an option you can select - or not - during Sector creation. It feels like something where some people will be into it, and some people will really dislike it no matter what, and, really, a more "chill" game where you just kind of putz around and do things at your own pace seems like something that oughtn't be disallowed.
Very happy to read this  :D

Agile

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2019, 09:36:08 AM »

I mean the mechanics are already there to make colonies a necessity, not just a money printer.

For example:

You start during Cycle 210 (or was it 206? I forget) as whatever setup you started with. After a couple of cycles (say, for examples sake, 212), a grand quest is activated. What is this grand quest? All factions report "strange readings" and "sensor pings" in deep space. What does this mean?

Well, you know all those low, medium, and high beacon systems? High beacon systems, starting from 212, start sending out "expeditions". They basically go to a star system near the high beacon system, and create a "low beacon" system. This "low beacon system" gets a new type of remnant station called a "seed nexus"; it only spawns low level Remnant fleets, up to Flugents at most. If its left to its own devices, after 1 year (or cycle), it becomes a medium beacon system. After 3 years (or cycles) it becomes a high beacon system... and repeats the process.

Unless your a speed running god, or just got really lucky in exploration early, you will most likely (at best) have a medium level fleet in 3 cycles. Enough to help stem the tide but not enough to stomp all the high beacon systems.

Hence, you need a income source thats reliable. You need a colony.

Colonies are now both a revenue source, and a necessity, as you have to wipe out the high beacon systems to end the AI threat. If that wasn't enough of a problem, if you start wiping out Remnant Nexus's, you get Remnants invading your colonies in increasing scale, and you have to fight their fleets in hyperspace as they will regularly comb them to find and exterminate you for trying to stop them.

Many mods already do all the above in bits and pieces (Nexerelin for Remnant raids, Ruthless Sector for Remnants in hyperspace, Nexerelin again for colonization if code is tweaked could allow Remnants to do it as well), and the base game has a lot of this code / features already in place, it just has to be tweaked.

This gives the player a overarching enemy that you don't have to deal with.... however, if the Remnants are left unchecked, they will get closer and closer to the Core World till they can begin invading all the major factions. And at that point it would be too late.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: A plot to overthrow the late game.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2019, 09:51:07 AM »

Personally I'd like to see each faction have a boss super capital ship that the player can't own to give the player some late game challenge. They might send one of these in a one time (or very infrequent) invasion event that forces the player to defend their colonies and also doesn't feel like a routine battle. These ships could also be defending the faction capitals to make them more challenging targets as well. Right now it feels like everything the factions can do, the player can do better.

In the same vein, I wish the faction colonies were all bigger to start, or that they grew so that they were more of a challenge in the late game. Maybe allow growth and have events that can allow for population loss as well (probably centered around invasions or famines or something that the player can influence).
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