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Author Topic: How often do you undergun mounts?  (Read 6658 times)

Megas

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How often do you undergun mounts?
« on: September 08, 2019, 05:32:22 PM »

Either no weapons in mounts or even putting smaller weapons in oversized mounts.

Lately, while trying to make Onslaught better enough at surviving and killing things in endgame fights, I started to remove luxuries like Vulcans on small mounts, and downsizing a heavy to Heavy Needler because it was more efficient than the heavy weapons.  Later, I started doing likewise for other ships, trying to keep them close to flux neutral.  Conquest only gets three ballistics out of four per side.  (800 range in the rearmost turret is not very helpful if ship fires most at 900 range, and I need more OP for Expanded Missile Racks to power Locusts).  Legion has the majority of its mounts empty.  Only two heavy weapons, two dual flak, and maybe a heavy needler.  Partly to keep flux use under control and partly to have enough OP to get more important stats.

Special mention and worst offender is Odyssey.  Two plasma cannons, some beam PD (seven burst PD or twelve normal PD), Xyphos and Longbow fighters.  Everything else in vents and hullmods.  Like the three lance Odyssey from 0.8.1a, two plasma Odyssey with tons of dissipation and little else is highly effective as a playership.  With enough combat skills, it is probably among the top two capital-sized brawlers.  Only Paragon might be better than it.  It looks stupid with only two significant guns, all on the left, and most mounts empty, but it is bizarrely effective.  As for AI using it, forget it.  It burns in like stupid and dies.

It seems filling in all mounts is mostly for cheap (or undersized) weapons with low OP and flux costs.  When player wants to use elite weapons, mounts probably need to be left empty.  Starsector is not the only game that works like this; those who play Endless Sky probably do something similar.  Use lots of blasters or other cheap weapons, or fewer electron beams, particle cannons, or expensive alien stuff.

P.S.  I was wrong about worst offender.  That goes to Drover.  All of them I use are completely unarmed, and rely totally on fighters for combat.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 05:38:40 PM by Megas »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2019, 05:59:45 PM »

I leave mounts empty frequently, particularly small energy and missile mounts. My odyssey builds usually just have 3 burst pd, 2 spark wings, 2 plasmas, a locust and maybe 1 or 2 sabot pods. I'm gonna try longbows more though. In that case, I would have some more PD because I don't have the sparks to depend on and I can see leaving missiles off to fit more expensive fighters. I also leave small energy on aurora empty quite often.

My astral loadouts are the worst offenders. They often only have a couple burst PD (or heavy burst) and maybe a graviton or two to maintain range, everything else goes to bombers and hull mods. This is a bit of a different case since I don't care about dissipation at all but a similar general idea.

For the legion, sometimes for fun I put 5x medium sabot pods, but usually I leave many of the medium mounts empty.
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Orion03

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2019, 06:14:41 PM »

Always....
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xenoargh

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2019, 06:27:18 PM »

Pretty much always, for AI-piloted builds where I can expect them to Flux-lock opponents.
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pedro1_1

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2019, 06:34:18 PM »

If this is just my Odyssey imagine the rest: https://sectorloadouts.info/view/avkrtQY9hFdcbJTm4
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sotanaht

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2019, 07:42:00 PM »

Always.  I barely ever fill small mounts at all.  Medium mounts depend on the ship, obviously if that's the best they've got I'll build around it.  If We're talking something like a paragon that has a bunch of mediums in "point defense" positions those get left empty too.

Point defense is horribly overrated.  It does nothing to fighters, and arguably leaves you worse off vs missiles than just taking them on the shields (especially when you consider the equivalent points going into capacitors or hardened shields).  Kinetic missiles are very PD-resistant anyway, and taking HE damage on shields is pretty much what you are supposed to do.  There are a few ships with sufficient ballistic PD to be a threat to fighters and completely stop missiles (particularly the Onslaught and Dominator), but I don't fly those ships anyway.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 07:52:00 PM by sotanaht »
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TaLaR

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2019, 09:46:04 PM »

Always. Missiles slots are usually empty. Filling right side of the Odyssey is pointless luxury unless going for IPDAI. AI Conquest is best with off-side being very lightly armed. All carriers just have to undergun/leave empty.

There are basically 3 meaningful states for PD on a ship:
- none
- token for countering Salamanders and Pilum sweeping (AI is distracted too much by them otherwise).
- A capital packed with flacks (Onslaught) or IPDAI + Adv Turret Gyros + tons of IR Pulse (Conquest, Paragon, Odyssey). With mandatory Advanced Counter Measures 3.
(- and Omen/Shade or Monitor due to systems/built-ins)

Anything in between gets easily overwhelmed by fighters with flares and more often than not fails to stop Squalls/Sabots/Hurricane, thus is waste of OP outside of duel counters to specific ships.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 12:01:03 AM by TaLaR »
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Thaago

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2019, 11:07:06 PM »

I'll add one more state of PD: area support. Usually this comes in the form of LRPD lasers (optionally + IPDAI), sometimes IPDAI tacs. The idea isn't so much to make a single ship invulnerable as it is to create a net of moderately effective PD. It sounds dumb right up until that deadly swarm of 24 Harpoons from a station coming for your overloaded cruiser is targeted by 4 ships and eliminated without a single hit. Its also decent anti fighter - fighters going for the target ship often fly past other ships, which then get free damage in before the fighters ever fire.

Re: OP

Sometimes, but probably less than most. I usually use few hullmods so have comparatively more OP, and I firmly believe that gunships should run flux hot. With the exception of a few very tight OP builds I do put missiles on ships. For small mounts, Reapers are nearly always a good choice even if nothing else seems attractive, while Sabots in are basically "extra life!" tokens in destroyer level combat. Medium missile pods are fonts of wonderful death that I would never skimp on.

There are a couple ships though... Herons I nearly always run out of OP to use more than a few of the smalls because I like putting heavy bombers and expanded deck crew on. Condors I guess I 'undersize' the hangar bays in that I almost always put very cheap interceptors in. Dominators can lose a few of the front/side smalls if I'm using flaks in the turrets (though I've been doing that less lately) - same with Onslaught, its front smalls are a bit suspect. Dominator also sometimes gets a medium in the large slot, even though it looks silly - a Heavy Needlers in particular actually works quite well because the ship sometimes runs into flux trouble and none of the large kinetics are efficient. Odyssey usually has several smalls empty.
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Grievous69

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2019, 12:11:43 AM »

Also fairly often. Examples others already have mention but I have one thing I ALWAYS do. And that is leave small missile mounts on ships that already have enough firepower (Sunder, Falcon, Eagle and similar). I'd rather have more flux for them than the ability to fire whole 2 Harpoons at once, it's just underwhelming. Now Enforcer on the other hand...
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npu3paka

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2019, 05:07:43 AM »

Never! Oddisey and Conquest r my favorite ships and I use all weapon mounts as intendet. Those ships, as I use them, with captains r extremely efficient vs everything. My only concern is the AI drive the Conquest very bad, but its good enough to manage a win...
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Igncom1

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 05:10:55 AM »

I'll very often under gun when i'm focusing a ship in one way or the other. Like a missile enforcer with railguns. Or an eagle with 3 HVD's and six tac lasers.
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Megas

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2019, 07:54:21 AM »

Point defense is horribly overrated.  It does nothing to fighters, and arguably leaves you worse off vs missiles than just taking them on the shields (especially when you consider the equivalent points going into capacitors or hardened shields).  Kinetic missiles are very PD-resistant anyway, and taking HE damage on shields is pretty much what you are supposed to do.  There are a few ships with sufficient ballistic PD to be a threat to fighters and completely stop missiles (particularly the Onslaught and Dominator), but I don't fly those ships anyway.
Point defense is handy when the ship cannot use shield to block missiles.  For example, I do not want to drop my Conquest's narrow omni shield toward the battleship it is fighting just to block a stray missile coming from another direction elsewhere.  Also, point defense is useful against mines from enemy Dooms and Star Fortress.
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mvp7

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2019, 07:54:59 AM »

I rarely undersize but often leave significant amount of mounts empty on most ships.

Probably the most "undergunned" combat ship I use is Wolf which I use as fast pursuit frigate. In addition to safety overrides It has IR Pulse lasers on the side mounts and Antimatter Blaster in the small turret, no other weapons.
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Locklave

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2019, 09:10:54 AM »

Lots of mount slots are empty on my ships. There is never enough OP. Safety Override ships are an extreme example but certainly a good one.

However I rarely leave missile slots empty as they don't use flux.
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Serenitis

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Re: How often do you undergun mounts?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2019, 09:48:06 AM »

Regularly.
Early / mid game this is by using 'cheaper' weapons due to lack of availability, and building for saturation rather than finesse.
Late game once blueprints have been found and caches recovered, ships will tend to become more specialised around a single weapon / role.

I generally don't downsize weapons if I can help it. But blanked mounts are not uncommon. Especially for assymetric builds.
Excepting some specialised loadouts missiles will always be fitted wherever possible because they are just too valuable a tool, and as pointed out above they (usually) don't generate flux. But they also allow ships to reach out and attack things from a distance.
Missiles are especially valuable for Safety Overrides ships due thier ignoring the range restriction.

Ships on the whole 'feel' like they just don't quite have enough OP to fit what you want on them. Even with loadout design. But iirc, sometime back it might have been mentioned that that was the intent behind the design - a perpetual feeling of "choose A or choose B, can't do both".
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