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Author Topic: The Problem of Energy Weapons  (Read 28752 times)

Limitless

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The Problem of Energy Weapons
« on: September 03, 2019, 06:05:50 PM »

TL;DR: they are constantly outranged by ballistic, and when they're not they don't do any hard flux damage. Also a lack of variety. PD is fine and not really discussed.

Small mounts:

Ballistic weapons that fit in these mounts are plenty, from the light needler to the light assult gun to the light mortar to the railgun. Energy weapons have the IR Pulse Laser and antimatter blaster, which do hard flux and are both outranged by all the non-PD ballistics. They've got the Ion Blaster, which is practically useless on its own, and the tactical laser, which is also useless on its own.

The range on the AM blaster is fine, as it fills a special role. The range on the IR pulse is okay, because 100 difference is acceptable in the chaos of combat. The tactical laser isn't too bad where it is, given it's meant to work with other weapons and only does 75 dps anyway. The ion blaster is where the real problems begin to show, because it's clearly meant to work with on of the larger weapons except...

Medium mounts:

This is where the ballistic weapons begin to really shine. here the jump from 600-700 range to 700-1000 is made. Some of the most commonly used ballistic weapons are the Hypervelocity Driver and the Heavy Mauler, which both have a range of 1000. All non-PD non-graviton beam energy weapons have a range of 600. Thats 400u of distance (over 9 seconds in an Apogee, 5 seconds in an Aurora) that your high-tech destroyer or cruiser has to cross before it can even begin to fire, througout which it's taking hard flux damage which limits it from using its weapons when it finally gets into range.

On a ship that can mount these guns, any ship relying on energy weapons for their hard flux is at a disticnt disadvantage. This is why the Aurora, Apogee, Shrike and Medusa perfrom worse than their corresponding low-tech/midline counterparts. Beam weapons are especially useless here, as they don't really pressure ships that can absorb 200 flux without too much of an issue, eg most ships with a medium ballistic mount.

Large mounts:

There are three main energy weapons that fit large mounts, the autopulse laser, the plasma cannon and the tachyon lance.

The autopulse laser is a worse version of the Onlaught's thermal pulse cannon. It uses more flux, has lower range and does less damage. For a large energy weapon, this is a little bit terrible. If it used a bit less flux and did a bit less damage, this might make a good medium weapon.

The plasma cannon has the highest sustained DPS in the game, does hard flux damage, and uses the most amount of flux overall. However, compared to the mjolnir cannon, it uses significantly more flux, has a shorter range, but does a a fair amount more damage and has no EMP component.

The lance is excellent right where it is and I don't think it needs changing. It's essencially a Super Beam that peirces some shield depending on hard flux.

Beams:

There are four beam weapons, the crappy general one (tactical laser), the graviton beam, and the large but very bad graviton beam (high intensity laser) and the ion beam. The first two have distinct roles and perfrom admirably, but could use a damage buff with corresponding flux useage buff, or additional, more powerful weapons with these higher stats.

The high intensity laser is next to useless for a large mount. It does 500 base damage but is halved to shields, does no hard flux damage and has no special effects. This essencially means that it's doing 250 damage to someone's shield for 500 flux. In all cases, I would rather put a graviton beam in it's place. Beam weapons are mostly for pressure and secondly for poke damage, and this weapon has it's priorities the wrong way around.

The ion beam does well with its special effect, but suffers in a high tech fleet thanks to a lack of hard flux, and doesn't have the tachyon lance's high burst damage to help it out. In short, it's fine

The AI doesn't really know how to handle beams though. Steady AI (the default for non-officered ships) tries to get in range of its longest range non-missile weapon, and stay in that range unless it thinks it has an advantage. This seems to include beams. Beams work best when they have a source of hard flux as a compliment, which if armed with anything else but a HVD/HM, it won't get.

So what is the point of energy weapons?

Energy weapons are short range, high flux using weapons. This is let down by the fact that the ranges between weapon sizes don't really match up, and despite the fact that they do a lot of damage, the extreme range disadvantage they have vs ballistics leaves them inferior overall.

Energy beams are the opposite, long range, low flux usage weapons, except the ion beam which has a special effect instead. All beams make excellent support weapons, maintaining pressure and allowing flanks to happen and overloads more likely. This is what makes the midline Eagle so effective, a combo of graviton, an ion beam and HVD/heavy mauler makes for a well rounded ship that the AI works with well.

Proposed resolutions:

Energy needs at least one long range hard flux weapon for each mount size. Somewhere around 600-700 for small, 700-800 for medium and 900 for large, similar to ballistic weapons. This would balance them against the extreme range of the HVD and heavy mauler, while maintaining the ballistic range advantage. A modular version of the Thermal Pulse Cannon, even if generally inferior to its onslaught counterpart, would not go amiss.

Energy weapons need more variety in general. The large difference in ranges between small and large hurts the Apogee, and the very short ranges and high flux usage hurts the Aurora. More energy weapons with different ranges and flux usage would alleviate this and buff high tech ships in general where they need it most: cruisers and destroyers.

Large energy weapons (aside from the PD and the lance) need a buff overall. A buff to 800 range would go a long way. There's a reason there aren't any large energy mounts on the conquest.
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Megas

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2019, 06:27:46 PM »

The point of energy weapons seems to be made for high-tech ships, to offset their superior mobility and flux stats.

In early Starfarer/Starsector (before 0.6.5a), energy had unlimited ammo, but ballistics had limited ammo just like missiles.  Energy weapons' main advantage was unlimited ammo.  Around 0.6.5a, ballistics got clips like TPCs/autopulse, then got unlimited ammo, destroying energy weapons main advantage over ballistics.

Large energy weapons were buffed in 0.9x, and they are generally good.  Plasma cannon has huge DPS, more efficient than ballistic's Mjolnir, and plasma eats projectiles and fighters and keeps on going.  High Intensity Laser melts armor away very fast.  If I had a large hybrid, plasma cannon and tachyon lance are good contenders.  The only large weapon that is really bad is Paladin PD, because it is so inefficient that unskilled Paragon will overload just from firing a few.

Medium energy weapons are underwhelming.  Heavy Blaster is good, if too inefficient.  The only that really bothers me is Phase Lance.  600 range and no hard flux is terrible, burst or no burst.  For a hybrid/universal, Heavy Blaster is a possible contender, maybe Ion Beam.

Small energy weapons that are not PD or AM Blaster are generally underwhelming.  Not useless, just... not good.

Small and medium energy weapons could use more variety.

If Conquest had large energy mount, I would mix Tachyon Lance with ballistics.  Shields cannot completely block that combo.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2019, 06:28:48 PM »

The auto pulse laser has both higher burst damage and higher sustained damage than the thermal pulse cannon (1500(300) for auto pulse vs 1250(250) for TPC). It also is one of the only energy weapons to have a positive damage:flux ratio which is a significant factor. Efficiency is a major concern for all weapons and one of the biggest drawbacks of energy weapons is that they all generally have sub 1:1 damage/flux ratios when competing against ballistics that general have a 2:1 ratios when used against the correct target. The main knock is that it has only 700 range which really sucks on capital ships where the average is 900 for ballistics.
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Limitless

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2019, 06:37:13 PM »

In early Starfarer/Starsector (before 0.6.5a), energy had unlimited ammo, but ballistics had limited ammo just like missiles.  Energy weapons' main advantage was unlimited ammo.  Around 0.6.5a, ballistics got clips like TPCs/autopulse, then got unlimited ammo, destroying energy weapons main advantage over ballistics.

I didn't know that.

Quote
Medium energy weapons are underwhelming.  Heavy Blaster is good, if too inefficient.  The only that really bothers me is Phase Lance.  600 range and no hard flux is terrible, burst or no burst.  For a hybrid/universal, Heavy Blaster is a possible contender, maybe Ion Beam.

Small energy weapons that are not PD or AM Blaster are generally underwhelming.  Not useless, just... not good.

Small and medium energy weapons could use more variety.

Almost exactly my point. Ballistic weapons have so many options compared to energy. I still think the large weapons could use a range boost.
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Megas

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2019, 07:06:31 PM »

For medium weapon, I like to see a long-range medium beam that can hit harder than Tactical Laser.  So far, if I simply want a long-range beam in the medium slot to hurt ships while shields are down, there is nothing better than Tactical Laser.  Graviton beam costs more OP to do more damage against shields.  Not what I want on something like Eagle or Gauss Conquest.

Also, Heavy Burst Laser is highly inefficient just to have mostly more charges and range.  Often, I use small burst PD in a medium energy mount because it is more efficient and cheaper.

Energy does not need that many options, since they are generally inferior to ballistics, but there needs to be enough.  There is no good general purpose small energy, and all there is for medium energy is assault weapons (from low-end mining blaster, to mid-grade pulse laser, to high-end heavy blaster) and ion weapons.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:10:25 PM by Megas »
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Goumindong

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2019, 07:46:26 PM »

There is a medium range beam that hits harder than a tac laser. The Ion Beam(200 ion damage vs hull) and Graviton Beam(200 vs shields) both do. Though in different situations. I think that is OK.

There are about no energy weapons that i don't use a lot of. Besides small energy weapons(i don't use a lot of IR pulse). Pulse lasers, phase lances. Heavy Blasters. I use them all and they're all quite good. There are no large energy weapons i don't make use of besides the paladin defense. Auto Pulse. HIL. Plasma Cannon. Tachyon Lance? They're all amazing.

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intrinsic_parity

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2019, 08:00:08 PM »

I think most of the existing energy weapons are well balanced but there are just some really major use cases where there is no good weapon. The biggest for me is low damage, efficient, hard flux medium energy for ships like the wolf and medusa that don't have the dissipation to support the existing hard flux medium energy weapons. I would not mind a higher dps medium beam as well. I think those two weapons would go a long way towards rounding out the energy weapons selection. I think large energy weapons are in a good place right now with the exception of the paladin.
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SonnaBanana

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2019, 08:14:52 PM »

Damage boost from flux is will be in the next release
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goduranus

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2019, 10:02:49 PM »

Solar shield will apply energy reduction to shields too, making energy weapons even weaker.

TaLaR

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2019, 10:14:44 PM »

Solar shield will apply energy reduction to shields too, making energy weapons even weaker.

Yeah, that's death of high tech right there. Solar shield is way too cheap for something so powerful. At least I'm sure I won't even entertain anything that relies on energy weapons to get through shield in next version. It makes use of HB against armor dubious too.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 11:53:23 PM by TaLaR »
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Grievous69

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2019, 11:24:14 PM »

Ayy this is my kind of thread. I'm all for variety and it's super clear energy weapons are lacking there. So many ships basically require certain weapons for them to be able to justify their DP cost (Heavy blaster for Shrike and Aurora and Plasma cannon for Apogee and Odyssey). Where our fellows the low tech and midline can just make do with whatever you have in cargo and still be decent ships in a fleet. Smalls and mediums are truly underwhelming and need more options, while I'm satisfied with large ones (except the flux of the Paladin). Although it would be nice to see another hard flux weapon that has decent range, I mean out of 5 larges, 3 of them are beams. Maybe then we could have another build for Paragon worth its crazy 60 DP cost along with 4 Tach lances.

I remember when energy weapons also had the advantage of extra damage when at higher flux. Then that got removed and energy weapons got rebalanced (no idea what the numbers were and if any weapons were unchanged). Now there will be a skill that will do exactly that but I don't want to rely on a skill just to make them ''viable''. They should perform good regardless. So yeah I'm all for more generalist options (getting tired of strike weapons) and some rebalancing of current ones.
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Goumindong

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2019, 11:48:49 PM »

The biggest for me is low damage, efficient, hard flux medium energy for ships like the wolf and medusa that don't have the dissipation to support the existing hard flux medium energy weapons

Pulse laser. Medusa can almost fire two with its shields down and 1 comfortably with them up.

You might say “but it cant fire all of them” and well... yea but no one can fire their full flux compliment unless its all PD weapons or theyre SO.

All that matters is armor pen and efficiency. And pulse lasers are pretty good on both. Alternatively you can always fit IR pulse if you just have to have more slots filled
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sotanaht

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2019, 01:45:28 AM »

I hold that the Autopulse is in fact the best (considering all categories) energy weapon available, and except for range, it outperforms the majority of ballistic weapons.  Because of the stocking mechanic, the time it takes to close with your target isn't an issue.  The Autopulse is charging up during that time window, so all the DPS it would be doing while closing range it does immediately upon reaching optimal firing range.  The Autopulse is significantly more flux efficient than most other weapons, with a flux per damage of only .83.  In a shield trade, flux efficiency is the number one most important stat, not DPS.  Even Kenetic weapons which do double damage vs shields tend to come out similar or worse in flux efficiency.  Consider the Gauss Cannon, which does 700 dps vs shield at the cost of 600 flux per second, netting an efficiency of only .86, which is still worse than the autopulse.  That's on top of doing incredibly low DPS vs armor.

TPC isn't really a fair comparison, given that it's a pre-set mount.  TPC is slightly more efficient with better range, but worse DPS.  It's a good weapon, definitely one of the best, but since you can't equip it on anything it doesn't really matter.
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Megas

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2019, 05:54:10 AM »

There is a medium range beam that hits harder than a tac laser. The Ion Beam(200 ion damage vs hull) and Graviton Beam(200 vs shields) both do. Though in different situations. I think that is OK.
No they do not.  Graviton beam is kinetic.  Against armor, it does less than Tactical Laser.  Not sure about hull with minimum armor around.  Graviton Beams main use to try to overwhelm dissipation if you can stack enough, not to damage armor and hull.  If I cannot stack enough beams, then Graviton is useless.  (For midline ships, I already have ballistics for anti-shield, and I want beams against non-shield defenses.)  For Ion Beam, it does 50 damage.  (The 200 is the ion damage.)  Ion Beam is good if player wants an unblockable beam to EMP ships, but not if he wants raw damage after shields go down.  Also, Ion Beam is a flux hog, and it is hard to stack more than one without getting flux problems.  For long-range finisher beam with raw damage against armor and hull, there is no better option than Tactical Laser, and that hurts.  For short range, there is phase lance or burst PD, but the range of those is too short if I want the likes of Tactical Laser (or HIL for heavy mounts).  Phase Beam attempted this role in early releases, before it was redesigned into the modern Phase Lance.  (Back then, Phase Beam was continuous instead of burst, had 700 range, did some EMP, costs 12 DP.  Not very flux efficient.  It was underwhelming.)

All that matters is armor pen and efficiency. And pulse lasers are pretty good on both. Alternatively you can always fit IR pulse if you just have to have more slots filled
Not always.  I tried Aurora with seven IR Pulse Lasers (anti-shield) and one Heavy Blaster (anti-armor).  While effective, it was not as good as simply two Heavy Blasters in the turrets and all hardpoints empty.  Even two pulse lasers in turrets and heavy blaster in hardpoint was better, though not as good as two heavy blasters in the turrets.

Sometimes (not always) DPS is more useful than efficiency if the enemy has less time to pound on your shields before they max on flux.

I remember when energy weapons also had the advantage of extra damage when at higher flux. Then that got removed and energy weapons got rebalanced (no idea what the numbers were and if any weapons were unchanged). Now there will be a skill that will do exactly that but I don't want to rely on a skill just to make them ''viable''. They should perform good regardless. So yeah I'm all for more generalist options (getting tired of strike weapons) and some rebalancing of current ones.
AM Blaster went from 1200 to 1400 damage per shot.  Mining Blaster likewise went from 600 to 700.  (Mining Blaster was a loser, it used to be stronger than Pulse Laser.)

(IR) Pulse Lasers gained about +33% damage.

Heavy Blaster gained +25% damage.

Autopulse was unchanged at first, but buffed later (Heavy Blaster outperformed it after a few seconds)

Plasma Cannon was unchanged at first (Heavy Blaster was nearly as powerful for 18 DP less).  Then it got passthrough and damage buffs, but flux use was raised to keep efficiency ratio, which was worse than Heavy Blaster.  This was okay with overpowered skills (huge flux stats), but by 0.8, the weakened skills made it so that it was almost unusable by player, and totally for AI.

Most beam range was normalized to 1000, except PD beams and maybe Phase Lance/Beam.  (Tactical Laser and Graviton Beam gained range, HIL lost range.  Ion Beam did not exist at the time.)  PD Beams aside from burst PD gained significant range.  At first, LR PD Laser had about 100 flux, which was too much, then lowered to 30.  Non-PD beams gain passthrough against missiles.  All beam weapons except maybe Tachyon Lance had their OP cost lowered by at least one.  Sometime later, Tachyon Lance cost was lowered from 32 to 25 DP.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 08:17:52 AM by Megas »
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TaLaR

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Re: The Problem of Energy Weapons
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2019, 06:07:17 AM »

Graviton Beams main use to try to overwhelm dissipation if you can stack enough, not to damage armor and hull.  If I cannot stack enough beams, then Graviton is useless.

Graviton has 2 uses:
- trying to overwhelm with soft flux
- limiting enemy flux that goes to weapon during brawl (both sides within each other's range). That's the typical use on mid-range Eagle/Falcon.

Graviton does nothing only if you out-range the enemy with hard flux weapons while being unable to overwhelm them with soft flux (they already waste dissipation by keeping shield up without firing). Well, except acting as insurance in case enemy manages to close the distance.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 06:10:38 AM by TaLaR »
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