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[Goumindong]

Blasters and even missiles aren't Doom's primary weapons, mines are. Blasters are just for convenient frigate cleanup, you don't even get to use them when fighting a capital like Paragon (which can be soloed by skill-less Doom).

I use the medium energy weapons a lot on the doom. Its really good for pressuring small ships when you dont need to be phased. Ion beam and heavy blaster with ITU. Good againat big ships too. I almost never fit 4 HNs that you all seem to like.

Its still a non-sequitor with regards to energy weapon balance in relation to warships.

[intrinsic_parity]

I think it's worth considering that ships with ballistics can fire above dissipation more easily than ships with energy weapons because ballistics are super efficient. Comparing high tech to other ships is tricky because over-gunning a high tech ship does nothing in the flux war and is probably even detrimental, but over-gunning a mid/low tech ship with kinetics will probably make it better in the flux war since it is doing ~2 damage/flux for most kinetic weapons (and maybe even better for something like a needler). The .5 shield efficiency mark is actually very interesting because that is the point where the average kinetic weapon is detrimental when firing over the dissipation limit.

I think dissipation gives a less complete picture of firepower on ballistic based ships than it does on high tech ships because ballistics ships can over-gun past the dissipation limit with efficiency weapons.

[Goumindong]

I think it's worth considering that ships with ballistics can fire above dissipation more easily than ships with energy weapons because ballistics are super efficient. Comparing high tech to other ships is tricky because over-gunning a high tech ship does nothing in the flux war and is probably even detrimental, but over-gunning a mid/low tech ship with kinetics will probably make it better in the flux war since it is doing ~2 damage/flux for most kinetic weapons (and maybe even better for something like a needler). The .5 shield efficiency mark is actually very interesting because that is the point where the average kinetic weapon is detrimental when firing over the dissipation limit.

I think dissipation gives a less complete picture of firepower on ballistic based ships than it does on high tech ships because ballistics ships can over-gun past the dissipation limit with efficiency weapons.

This is true but its also kinda non-sequitor. The AI isn't good at determining which weapons to shoot into shield and to overlux with. The player can more easily set themselves up to overflux on kinetics but otherwise the margin is on the average shield damage efficiency because the AI will continue to shoot the HE and kinetic at similar rates... or at least the AI will do this when its flux is low, which is basically the same thing.

For the player you would probably want to consider the marginal flux efficiency of firing over flux and that will be based on your HE damage... which you should probably have a decent amount of if you plan to actually kill things once you get their shields down.

[Megas]

Apogee is definitely atypical.  It can use a heavy weapon (and a heavy missile), and it has other goodies.  At its best, it punches like a 20 or 22 DP cruiser for the low cost of 18 DP.

At worse it dies to a couple of frigates as it can't ward off frigates as easily as other cruisers can.

Apogee does alright with (IR) Pulse Lasers in the smaller rear mounts to defend against small flankers.  Thanks to flares and shield, it does not need PD as badly as other ships.  Unskilled Apogee can deal with five SIM frigates (Lashers, Vigilance, Brawler, and Hound; should be comparable to early game fodder).  If it sticks with what it starts with (PD Lasers and Pilums, I think), then sure, Apogee will be in trouble.

If anything, Eagle struggles more than it should (against the above five frigates) unless it has the right loadout.  (Classic three Graviton Eagle will not work, but Thaago's phase lance Eagle does.)  Eagle costs more than Apogee.  22 DP vs. 18 DP.

[Goumindong]

Sim Apogee has PD lasers, Mining Blaster, Piliums... its not a particularly good test case for fending off 5 frigates compared to even a sim eagle(which is not that good at it since it does not have high precision penetration/strike weapons like the phase lance)

[Megas]

Sorry, I should have clarified player piloted with no personal skills.  (Did have Loadout Design.)

I did not try starter Apogee, because it would probably be dead.  (PD lasers would not do much against a shielded Lasher or the like.)  However, all of the weapons it needs are not too hard to get, except maybe plasma cannon.  (Locusts are more accessible since pirates use and sell them.)

[intrinsic_parity]

I tend to go light on HE for the AI, probably 1/3 of weapons/flux generation, but could be more or less depending on what I plan on fighting, more if I will be fighting pirates and ludds, less for high tech and remnants. I then use missiles, bombers and the player ship for killing power. If the AI doesn't die and gets the enemy high on flux, I consider that a success.

Anyway, if 2/3 of weapon flux generation is giving 2 damage/flux and 1/3 of damage is at .5 damage/flux then average output is 1.5 damage/flux. It's more efficient usage of dissipation and capacity regardless of whether you exceed dissipation or not. You can win the flux war at the expense of killing things slower. Usually a good trade for the AI., and not a trade that can be made on high tech ships.

Over-gunning is mostly relevant on low tech ships that can easily fill their entire dissipation with kinetics and still have mounts to spare. They also tend to have lots of missiles mounts for 0 flux HE to back up that kinetic damage and armor to deal with high flux situations better.

On another note, I wish that I could test against ship variants that I've made. The default cruiser load outs are so bad in the sim that testing against them doesn't really tell you anything.

[Embolism]

Pulse laser should have 1:1 flux to damage efficiency. IR pulse has it. Beyond that I don't think pulse laser needs more buffs.

Ion pulser... needs to decide what it wants to be. For an ion weapon it is too flux inefficient and has less range than the light version. For a damage dealer it is also quite flux inefficient and thanks to weak and spreading shots performs poorly against armour. The only thing it does better than others is burst against shields, which is questionable given its short range and flux inefficiency. For starters, it should have 500 range, a bit less spread and cost 90 flux per shot. Might still need further buffs on top of that.

Mining blaster should cost 8 OP, have 600 range and deal 500 damage instead of 700 with better flux efficiency. Damage nerf is so it doesn't get used by certain high tech ships as a superior burst weapon: it just doesn't sit right that the most advanced warships would actually prefer to use a *** mining blaster instead of a sleek, weapons-grade blaster.

Phase Lance I've already said my piece. The alternative to buffing its range would be to give it 1:1 flux to damage efficiency.

Heavy burst should recharge faster than burst PD and have close to 1:1 flux to damage efficiency. I don't see why its efficiency is so much worse than burst PD.

If ion cannon and IR pulse can't have 600 range then they should at least have 550 range. Mining laser should cost 1 OP if it can't be buffed.

[TaLaR]

On another note, I wish that I could test against ship variants that I've made. The default cruiser load outs are so bad in the sim that testing against them doesn't really tell you anything.

You can, but it's not convenient to do. You'd have to make minimod for your variant list and copy ones you want from mission or saves (after editing there).

Mining blaster should cost 8 OP, have 600 range and deal 500 damage instead of 700 with better flux efficiency. Damage nerf is so it doesn't get used by certain high tech ships as a superior burst weapon: it just doesn't sit right that the most advanced warships would actually prefer to use a *** mining blaster instead of a sleek, weapons-grade blaster.

Right, let's nerf already struggling Hyperion further into oblivion...

[Thaago]

This might sound weird, but I've used mining blasters to decent effect on very early game fleets. A wolf with a mining blaster sucks right up until you need to crack the armor of something, where it suddenly becomes useful.

Of course now that we start with a Hammerhead with heavy mortars in the tutorial, I can just use that for early armor cracking.

[Embolism]

Mining blaster should cost 8 OP, have 600 range and deal 500 damage instead of 700 with better flux efficiency. Damage nerf is so it doesn't get used by certain high tech ships as a superior burst weapon: it just doesn't sit right that the most advanced warships would actually prefer to use a *** mining blaster instead of a sleek, weapons-grade blaster.

Right, let's nerf already struggling Hyperion further into oblivion...

When a ship's "balance" is based solely on a single weapon, where do you think the issue lies...?

[TaLaR]

Mining blaster should cost 8 OP, have 600 range and deal 500 damage instead of 700 with better flux efficiency. Damage nerf is so it doesn't get used by certain high tech ships as a superior burst weapon: it just doesn't sit right that the most advanced warships would actually prefer to use a *** mining blaster instead of a sleek, weapons-grade blaster.

Right, let's nerf already struggling Hyperion further into oblivion...

When a ship's "balance" is based solely on a single weapon, where do you think the issue lies...?

Hyperion as a ship, clearly just a thin wrapper around it's system. It's not even a frigate in typical sense, just entirely different category as in normal ships/phase/hyperion.
And without Mining Blasters it's toothless.

Might as well give Hyperion built-in improved blasters.

[Embolism]

Hyperion as a ship, clearly just a thin wrapper around it's system. It's not even a frigate in typical sense, just entirely different category as in normal ships/phase/hyperion.
And without Mining Blasters it's toothless.

The solution then is to fix the Hyperion, and not make the Mining Blaster sink with it.

Mining Blaster IMO should be a budget option. As it is it's not very budget and its flux efficiency is so hideous it can barely be used by ships that might want a budget option. Light weapons-grade range doesn't help.

The solution to the Hyperion in my mind is to axe the teleporter. It did a lot more harm than good.

[intrinsic_parity]

I think the mining blaster should have reduced flux cost and a longer firing delay. Efficiency should be like 1.5, maybe even a but better. I think reducing damage would make it too similar to the heavy blaster, just worse. Lower dps but better armor cracking and lower OP cost seems like a more interesting choice.

[Goumindong]

Sorry, I should have clarified player piloted with no personal skills.  (Did have Loadout Design.)

I did not try starter Apogee, because it would probably be dead.  (PD lasers would not do much against a shielded Lasher or the like.)  However, all of the weapons it needs are not too hard to get, except maybe plasma cannon.  (Locusts are more accessible since pirates use and sell them.)

I was agreeing with you :p. If the royal you had used the sim apogee and discovered it did poorly against frigates this would be because the fit is bad not because the ship lacks the tools to deal with flanking frigates.