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Author Topic: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)  (Read 1591 times)

bowman

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AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« on: September 12, 2019, 02:58:46 AM »

Assuming it doesn't already (which I'm posting this off of having just tried fitting an Odyssey only to watch the AI literally not fire its two large energy weapons when at 0 flux, for probably 90% of the fight), the AI should prioritize lining up the firing arcs of Weapon Group 1 (and likely descending to 5/maybe ignoring PD group arcs, or increasingly ignoring weapon groups with little to no overlap).

I think? this would be relatively simple but make the AI generally more competent, as well as easier to control and predict for the player (when making variants for allied use).

As a related note for the Odyssey, I'm pretty sure its behavior resulted from trying to get the 3x Medium Missile and 1x Large Missile (synergy) arcs closer to the target because it perhaps saw them as better DPS but in reality it was A) wasting missile ammo (Locust v Dominator with full armor) and B) could have at the least fired a few plasma rounds just to strip the armor off before trying to make use of Locust's admittedly superior raw DPS.

I will say that it would make sense if it currently focuses on DPS output, and can respect that it seemed to be trying to ensure all of its missiles were hitting, but given they are all tracking missiles I'm not sure if it should put as much value in positioning their arcs over its primary and infinite-ammo energy armament.

Fair to mentioned this post resulted from only one sim test but the issue resolved itself after my guess at what it was doing lead to removing the rear-most missile pod and it immediately started making more use of its main weapons. Although, it still does that weird thing where it burst forward then reverses slowly away, bursts forward.. ad infinitum, instead of actually staying out of the Dominator's Large arcs and just circle strafing it: however, another post touched on this and I can agree that always trying to flank wouldn't be ideal and is more of an Odyssey-specific issue.
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TaLaR

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2019, 03:13:45 AM »

Although, it still does that weird thing where it burst forward then reverses slowly away, bursts forward.. ad infinitum, instead of actually staying out of the Dominator's Large arcs and just circle strafing it: however, another post touched on this and I can agree that always trying to flank wouldn't be ideal and is more of an Odyssey-specific issue.

Steady AI without Eliminate order handles being outranged extremely poorly and often just sits at worst possible range under fire (where enemy reaches it, but it doesn't reach the enemy).

Odyssey AI specifically doesn't try to turn the ship to maximize system usage either (so it always goes face forward, rear backward, rather than turning face where it needs to go and use the system).

AI also doesn't really understand circle strafing. It does try to behind the target, but in extremely half-hearted manner - only the fastest frigates barely manage to get behind a Dominator in 1v1 (despite the fact that it's actually trivial given their stats).
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sotanaht

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2019, 03:45:13 AM »

The AI really doesn't like using plasma cannons at all, even outside of the general range issues it has with most guns.  Swap the plasmas for autopulse and you'll get 300% the effective use...  which likely still isn't enough if you are using Steady AI.  That's why 90% of warships need Aggressive AI, and the heavy capitals you want in the middle of the enemy formation (like the Paragon) benefit from Reckless.  Steady is only good for standoff time-wasters, so of course that would be designed as the default.
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Alex

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2019, 09:07:45 AM »

This looks like it's likely the same as an issue that came up a while back with Plasma Cannons and Locusts on an Apogee, and should be fixed for the next release. The Plasma Cannon is flagged as a "STRIKE" weapon and the AI was saving firing it despite it not being ammo-limited.

An Odyssey loadout similar to the one you're describing (2x Plasma, Locusts, some other missiles) seems to do well vs a Dominator in a quick test I just did, so it does look like this is fixed.
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bowman

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2019, 09:58:25 AM »

Ah, that's good to know, I continue to look forward to next version, then.  :)
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Gniwu

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2019, 01:11:03 PM »

This looks like it's likely the same as an issue that came up a while back with Plasma Cannons and Locusts on an Apogee, and should be fixed for the next release. The Plasma Cannon is flagged as a "STRIKE" weapon and the AI was saving firing it despite it not being ammo-limited.

An Odyssey loadout similar to the one you're describing (2x Plasma, Locusts, some other missiles) seems to do well vs a Dominator in a quick test I just did, so it does look like this is fixed.

Whaaat, so I'm NOT crazy! I've been using two Sunders equipped with plasma cannons in my current fleet loadout, and while the build kicks ass on paper, in practice they just end up loitering and soaking fire (which, I guess, also helps a bit, but isn't what I brought them for!) for most of the fight. I've been wondering why the AI was so passive about using its main gun and thought it might be because of completely overblown flux concerns.

Is the 'next release' you're talking about the big endgame content one, coming whenever? Or are we talking about a sooner, incremental fix that might even be save compatible?
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Alex

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2019, 01:12:41 PM »

Is the 'next release' you're talking about the big endgame content one, coming whenever? Or are we talking about a sooner, incremental fix that might even be save compatible?

Somewhere in between, and definitely (well, 99.99%) not save compatible. I wouldn't expect *all* the endgame content to be in one release, it'll be an incremental process.
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Gniwu

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2019, 01:26:32 PM »

Ah, okay... That sound you hear is me swapping out all my plasmas for tachyon lances, then...
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Plantissue

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2019, 01:47:41 PM »

I was wondering about the Hurricane MIRV. It is described with the primary role as "Finisher", but it seems to fire when in range and continuously until it runs out of missiles. Is that intended?
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Alex

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2019, 01:56:36 PM »

It'll fire indiscriminately initially but will stop and wait for better opportunities when it's down to 5 missiles.
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dandystar

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2019, 02:45:32 PM »

It'll fire indiscriminately initially but will stop and wait for better opportunities when it's down to 5 missiles.

From the recent AI tournament, the AI will use hurricane against fighters. This is intended?
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Goumindong

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2019, 04:37:54 PM »

"Probably" the AI doesn't really distinguish between different sizes of ships and choosing an optimal use case for every weapon for the AI might be a tad difficult. Though it would be super nice.

Specifically what would be best is if in the weapon fitting screen you could define the AI usage of the weapons and the targets that are allowed to be fired at and these would apply per weapon group, overriding base assumptions if selected.

So you could tell the phase lances to be strike/finishers and you could tell the MIRVS to not fire at fighters or frigates. Downside here is that it would make ship construction much more involved and also make variant construction similarly involved
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Plantissue

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Re: AI Ease-Of-Use Idea (for allied ship designs)
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2019, 09:26:41 AM »

It'll fire indiscriminately initially but will stop and wait for better opportunities when it's down to 5 missiles.
Thanks. I guess that when I use it, the AI always seem to see opportunities. What happens with Expanded Missile Racks? Does it also wait at 5 missiles?
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