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Author Topic: Venture, why?  (Read 20116 times)

Plantissue

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #105 on: September 04, 2019, 09:43:32 AM »

Personally I think the Venture fulfills its game role well enough. If a reason is needed to actively buy one than to destroy or salvage one, reducing its buying cost to a more "civilian" level should be enough. That said I don't really see a gameplay or description reason to not give it Salvage Gantry, except that it suits the Apogee more to have it.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 10:33:02 AM by Plantissue »
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Agile

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #106 on: September 04, 2019, 09:50:00 AM »

Id rather the removal of the fighter bay all together if it gives the Venture a Salvage Gantry and make its a true cheap cost exploration cruisers; something that is reliable but can be thrown away if you get over your head (aka you accidentally run into a Ordos fleet when risking a jump into a medium beacon station in hopes of finding good loot).

While the Apogee is nice, a cheaper, civillian, and more readily available low tech option (the Venture) with a Salvage Gantry would make sense.
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Serenitis

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #107 on: September 05, 2019, 09:11:46 AM »

Id rather the removal of the fighter bay all together if it gives the Venture a Salvage Gantry

I'd prefer the greater flexibility of fighters, but the game really does need some more salvage oriented ships.
I could live with this tbh.
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Eji1700

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #108 on: September 05, 2019, 12:46:45 PM »

I think forcing mining drones is fine.  It's flavorful for the ship.  If the ship needs to be better I think a mixture of cost adjustments and usefulness of mining drones themselves might be worth looking into (it'd be nice if they assisted salvage, maybe have them ignore minimum armor as well).
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #109 on: September 05, 2019, 01:21:05 PM »

I think the salvage gantry might be a bridge too far considering this is the 'base' level cruiser in the game. It can already reduce survey costs.
But I very much agree that an unlocked fighter bay like versions past, would make the ship somewhat more attractive for general use.

One of the reasons the Venture exists in the fashion it does and is assigned to the default base_bp, is to give in-game factions without access to a heavy industry the ability to field at least something that does a passable job of being a fleet anchor.
With the limited ability act as a carrier, the Venture would be a little more effective in this role for the tradeoff that the OP cost of the fighters still has to come out of the ship's loadout thus reducing it's already limited combat potential. This incentivises the use of 'cheap' fighters, but still leaves the option to specialise in that direction if desired.

If this is still too unbalanced for your taste, you could also consider removing the fighter bay and giving the Venture a built-in converted hangar. This would effectively restrict it's use of bombers, and even further incentivise the use of the cheaper fighters.

Gantry > Survey equipment. Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine needed, which is not something I miss or even notice if I'm missing. I get it from the angle of OP cost, but at the same time I feel like all the support type mods are overpriced. So if I had to pick, Gantry would be better and suit how it gets used in game. Both Pirates/Scavengers would have a RP and game mechanics reason to use one, more loot. Currently both those groups use no Salvaging Ships, which you'd think would be logical for them to do.

Converted hanger bays would be fine, removing the pointless mining drones. Now that I'm thinking about it I'm not sure why there is no upgrade to mining drones, I mean there should be a Military/Pirate/LP variant that is better (more costly too) suited for fighting.

Ventures description for quick reference.

"Tough, dependable and not overly expensive, Venture-class cruisers are usually constructed by private corporations for escort duty or by small non-aligned worlds for system defense.

The Venture-class ships are perhaps the most widely used civilian cruisers in the Sector. The blueprints for the Venture are widely available and can often be secured without too much trouble.

When used by small corporations, the ship is usually the pride of the fleet and is used to underpin vital operations. Due to its ubiquity, the vessel also serves with quite a few pirate outfits, where it sometimes fills the role of command ship." –In-Game Description

It doesn't seem to be a specific mining ship, so the mining drones are there for no reason. I'd argue it's cost is rather expensive as in terms of literal in game credits, for another 10-30k you could buy a far better cruiser or buy 2 Collossus Mk III (generally better in every way).

It should be widely used for a reason beyond it being common. If you wanted missiles, Kite spam with missile racks, that's cheap and deadly.

The Anvil and Anchor stuff is personal strats and not a reason to buy or/build or even want a Venture. It being a common BP should be matched by a logistical reasoning in game for it to see such wide used. Currently the reasoning seems extremely meta, a big fodder ship.

edit:
I agree with you Eji1700, mining drones could have utility attached to their existence as they are non combat in RP but do nothing non combat in mechanics.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 01:27:06 PM by Locklave »
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Wyvern

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #110 on: September 05, 2019, 01:28:38 PM »

Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine needed
It also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition.  There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...

On the other hand, if we did swap the Venture's surveying equipment for a salvage gantry, I'd consider it a net upgrade; you can add surveying equipment after-market if you need to, but the salvage gantry is only available as a built-in hull mod.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Ragebrew

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #111 on: September 05, 2019, 07:13:14 PM »

Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine needed
It also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition.  There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...

On the other hand, if we did swap the Venture's surveying equipment for a salvage gantry, I'd consider it a net upgrade; you can add surveying equipment after-market if you need to, but the salvage gantry is only available as a built-in hull mod.

I wish Salvage Gantry wasn't restricted to a handful of ships. It really, really should be just like any other. Because frankly, I never use salvage rigs in my deep space exploration fleets, rather gather a swarm of Shepherd. Those can at least fight back a little if I find myself running from something big and scary.
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #112 on: September 05, 2019, 07:46:53 PM »

Just my opinion of relative value as Survey equipment only means less heavy machine needed
It also means less supplies needed, which adds up fast if you're on a longer exploration expedition.  There is a threshold past which it's not worth adding more surveying equipment, but when all those little volcanic worlds cost 5 supplies instead of 40...

On the other hand, if we did swap the Venture's surveying equipment for a salvage gantry, I'd consider it a net upgrade; you can add surveying equipment after-market if you need to, but the salvage gantry is only available as a built-in hull mod.

While I acknowledge this is the case I point out that on individual trips that you simply don't do enough surveying to justify it as a requirement. Where as I will not run mid game without 2 salvage ships.

Really neither of those mods is overwhelming, it's mostly what is feels required (Gantry) vs what would I would like to have (survey equipment).

Who honestly believes if they stuck a Gantry on the Venture that the fleet meta would change in any way aside from people making space for 1 or maybe 2 ventures in crazy cases. I certainly don't think it's suddenly become a required ship. I think it would become one of those ships people would advise you getting "If you get a chance to get a Venture do it because it's a good support ship".

It's unlikely it will change however so it's likely gonna need to be a mod if I want that to be the case.
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Wyvern

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #113 on: September 05, 2019, 08:19:36 PM »

I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies.  I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #114 on: September 05, 2019, 08:46:08 PM »

I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies.  I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?

Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?

That sounds like unproductive busy work.
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Ragebrew

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #115 on: September 05, 2019, 09:09:47 PM »

I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies.  I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?

Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?

That sounds like unproductive busy work.

Check the sell price for surveying data. The only one not really worth the time and effort are class 1 worlds. If you have a fully decked out surveying fleet, where even gas giants only take 5 supply, you can make a LOT of money surveying. Plenty of class 4 gas giants, volcanic worlds, toxic worlds, barren worlds even. Ultrarich veins can happen anywhere.

My exploration fleet tends to be an Apogee if I can find one, four Ventures, assorted support ships like a few Drams and cargo haulers, all with Surveying equipment if I can find it. Given how bountiful some systems can be, with derelict ships and probes, and other such things, it's quite easy to hurl myself off into the far corners of space and only be limited by how much stuff I can carry, not the size of my fuel tank. Give them all militarized subsystems, have the +1 burn skill, and suddenly you can outrun anything you don't want to fight, and chase down anything you do want to fight.

The Venture will never be a dedicated combat craft, and that's alright. It was not designed as one. It's a civilian exploration craft, and should be used as such. Militarized subsystems allow it to explore better, not fight better. Less sensor profile, more burn means I can hope planets faster, and cram more crew into less ships when I want to finally settle somewhere.
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nonomo4

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #116 on: September 05, 2019, 09:58:54 PM »

I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies.  I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?

Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?

That sounds like unproductive busy work.

Check the sell price for surveying data. The only one not really worth the time and effort are class 1 worlds. If you have a fully decked out surveying fleet, where even gas giants only take 5 supply, you can make a LOT of money surveying. Plenty of class 4 gas giants, volcanic worlds, toxic worlds, barren worlds even. Ultrarich veins can happen anywhere.

My exploration fleet tends to be an Apogee if I can find one, four Ventures, assorted support ships like a few Drams and cargo haulers, all with Surveying equipment if I can find it. Given how bountiful some systems can be, with derelict ships and probes, and other such things, it's quite easy to hurl myself off into the far corners of space and only be limited by how much stuff I can carry, not the size of my fuel tank. Give them all militarized subsystems, have the +1 burn skill, and suddenly you can outrun anything you don't want to fight, and chase down anything you do want to fight.

The Venture will never be a dedicated combat craft, and that's alright. It was not designed as one. It's a civilian exploration craft, and should be used as such. Militarized subsystems allow it to explore better, not fight better. Less sensor profile, more burn means I can hope planets faster, and cram more crew into less ships when I want to finally settle somewhere.

I feel like this is the key. A ship really only needs one purpose to be the reason it exist. While being common may not be good enough for some people to justify getting it themselves, it could be good enough for others to pick up the ship instead. After all, that's why you will more likely then not see this ship in fleets and it's the reason the ship is phased out later for better options when available. The only reason I would feel like the ship needs to be rebalanced is if there was a ship that was equally available that was superior to it in all aspects (price, fighting aiblity, usefulness). As long as there's a plus side to a ship verses another (even it being just being more common), then it's fine in my books.
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Agile

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #117 on: September 06, 2019, 03:39:50 AM »

I do individual trips that include surveys of 30+ planets; having surveying equipment on multiple cruisers easily saves me multiple thousands of supplies.  I guess your trips are just one system at a time rather than clearing out multiple constellations?

Generally I just survey planets with ruins or planets I think might be worth settling. I guess if I wanted to go all completionist I'd require one. I can see which planets have ruins so why am I scanning some pointless Barren or w/e world?

That sounds like unproductive busy work.

Check the sell price for surveying data. The only one not really worth the time and effort are class 1 worlds. If you have a fully decked out surveying fleet, where even gas giants only take 5 supply, you can make a LOT of money surveying. Plenty of class 4 gas giants, volcanic worlds, toxic worlds, barren worlds even. Ultrarich veins can happen anywhere.

My exploration fleet tends to be an Apogee if I can find one, four Ventures, assorted support ships like a few Drams and cargo haulers, all with Surveying equipment if I can find it. Given how bountiful some systems can be, with derelict ships and probes, and other such things, it's quite easy to hurl myself off into the far corners of space and only be limited by how much stuff I can carry, not the size of my fuel tank. Give them all militarized subsystems, have the +1 burn skill, and suddenly you can outrun anything you don't want to fight, and chase down anything you do want to fight.

The Venture will never be a dedicated combat craft, and that's alright. It was not designed as one. It's a civilian exploration craft, and should be used as such. Militarized subsystems allow it to explore better, not fight better. Less sensor profile, more burn means I can hope planets faster, and cram more crew into less ships when I want to finally settle somewhere.

I feel like this is the key. A ship really only needs one purpose to be the reason it exist. While being common may not be good enough for some people to justify getting it themselves, it could be good enough for others to pick up the ship instead. After all, that's why you will more likely then not see this ship in fleets and it's the reason the ship is phased out later for better options when available. The only reason I would feel like the ship needs to be rebalanced is if there was a ship that was equally available that was superior to it in all aspects (price, fighting aiblity, usefulness). As long as there's a plus side to a ship verses another (even it being just being more common), then it's fine in my books.

I still believe that the Apogee is better in every way (and still holds its own late game) while the Venture's only thing is being "common". Even Kite's, that are common, have their own uses early to early-mid game if you kit them out properly. Venture's are pretty lack luster for the commitment of having a cruiser.
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #118 on: September 06, 2019, 10:23:20 AM »

Did you know the price difference between a Dominator and a Venture on the black market is only 30k? Buy a Dominator and stick a Survey mod on it. It's a superior ship in every single way, not just a little better either. Vastly superior. It also doesn't need militarization to have 8 burn, so the survey space is paid for if that was the ships secondary role. 2 more fuel and 10 more supplies but the fighting power increase clearly pays for the costs. A venture would need fighting ships to make up for it's weakness in combat, nothing costing 10 supplies and 2 fuel is gonna equal that difference.

30k difference in cost is a joke and you could do this exact same thing with other cheaper cruisers.

Survey and Militarization are both logistical hull mods so it'd be a direct trade 1 for 1.

The Venture needs to be far cheaper or far more useful. Who would disagree?

Survey equipment is better then I initially thought, which is good to know. Thank you to those sharing their knowledge on that matter. Not sure if it's better then Gantry, I think that's more a play style then a mechanics issue.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2019, 10:36:53 AM by Locklave »
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Ragebrew

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #119 on: September 06, 2019, 01:58:21 PM »

Did you know the price difference between a Dominator and a Venture on the black market is only 30k? Buy a Dominator and stick a Survey mod on it. It's a superior ship in every single way, not just a little better either. Vastly superior. It also doesn't need militarization to have 8 burn, so the survey space is paid for if that was the ships secondary role. 2 more fuel and 10 more supplies but the fighting power increase clearly pays for the costs. A venture would need fighting ships to make up for it's weakness in combat, nothing costing 10 supplies and 2 fuel is gonna equal that difference.

30k difference in cost is a joke and you could do this exact same thing with other cheaper cruisers.

Survey and Militarization are both logistical hull mods so it'd be a direct trade 1 for 1.

The Venture needs to be far cheaper or far more useful. Who would disagree?

Survey equipment is better then I initially thought, which is good to know. Thank you to those sharing their knowledge on that matter. Not sure if it's better then Gantry, I think that's more a play style then a mechanics issue.

Can't always find an Surveying Mod for sale. I tried to get one in my last run, eventually gave up after the sixth system checked, and just went out into space to find one.

The Venture carries more than double the cargo of a Dominator, which is a vital thing when performing exploration. Yeah, I could just get more ships to fill out my cargo hauling needs, but that's more crew I need to pay, more fuel I need to provide, more supplies I need to spend on maint and repairs. It also only costs 3 fuel per LY compared to the Dom's 5, 15 supply to the Dom's 25. Yeah, you can get to a point where that really doesn't matter, but getting to that point can take a while, and every credit saved is a credit put towards getting your colonies set up and the REAL money rolling in.

I will agree that the Venture is an inferior combat vessel, but it's original purpose is NOT combat. It's a nice jack of all trades ship, cheap and plentiful, easy to upkeep, and designed for the niche of civilian exploration. The Apogee is without a doubt a better ship in every way that matters, except I have NEVER seen one of those bastards for sale, while I can run a circuit of core worlds and come away with a six pack of Ventures.
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