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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: Venture, why?  (Read 3751 times)

Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2019, 01:51:55 PM »


Apogee is better.

That's what I mean.  Apogee also fights better/free scanning upgrade and is naturally tanky via shields. Far better in a real fight.

I also agree the beating the dumb AI Onslaught is not something that wins me over. Onslaughts get wrecked by everything that can flank and those ships aren't 1 trick ponies as they can do that to normal ships too.

Cargo space is not impressive either.

It seems like the kind of ship I should like, as I love workhorse type ships. Mule springs to mind. But it feels like it lacks general functionality.
- Cargo space is okay
- Survey systems are nice
- okay missile systems I guess?

You can't stick a fighter bay on it for decent fighters or even upgrade the mining drones. It's damn speed of 7 kills me, feels like a forced upgrade. 14 max burn is unacceptable. Please don't say Tugs, as no one using a Venture is gonna be using tugs lol.

edit:
I want to like this ship damnit...
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 01:54:57 PM by Locklave »
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Megas

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2019, 01:55:21 PM »

Please don't say Tugs, as no one using a Venture is gonna be using tugs lol.
Not that early in the game when one may consider using Venture.  The fuel use is too much very early in the game.  Tugs are for later in the game when player has money to burn for as much fuel as he wants.
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Grievous69

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2019, 01:58:30 PM »

It's damn speed of 7 kills me, feels like a forced upgrade.

Petition to change the name from Venture-class to Camping-class.
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TaLaR

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2019, 02:02:15 PM »

Apogee is easy to kite to death. But AI is bad at kiting, unless range+speed advantage is beyond ridiculous (which it usually isn't). Which makes Apogees much safer than they should be against competent opponents.

Venture is even slower and practically unarmed. Any DE defeats it reliably under AI control (well except maybe Shrike, I keep forgetting it counts as DE...). It's just question of time.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 02:04:53 PM by TaLaR »
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Megas

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2019, 02:06:54 PM »

AI kites just fine in solo fights, which early game fights may devolve into.  (My smaller ships run out of PPT, leaving me with my Apogee against one or two small enemy ships that keep backpedaling but will not give up the fight.)  I had to corner some enemy ships before my Apogee could kill them to end the fight.
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TaLaR

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2019, 02:10:30 PM »

AI kites just fine in solo fights, which early game fights may devolve into.  (My smaller ships run out of PPT, leaving me with my Apogee against one or two small enemy ships that keep backpedaling but will not give up the fight.)  I had to corner some enemy ships before my Apogee could kill them to end the fight.

AI 'kiting' is mostly about wasting time. Player kiting is about killing stuff without giving it chance to fight back or back off. Which is why I say AI mostly can't kite - it's way too inefficient with it's back and forth dance instead of just keeping steady optimal distance as player would.
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Megas

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2019, 02:12:09 PM »

No argument there.
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2019, 02:15:09 PM »

I never really thought about it, but there really is a lack of non combat ship upgrades that support the fleet. Survey/Scanner/Scrap/Cargo/Fuel. I was thinking about what you could add to it to make it more useful, something that would be a "oh hey, that's useful even if it's bad at fighting" kind of thing. I've never kept one in my fleet in any game since my first game where I was all "omg that's a big ship I bet it kicks ass!".
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Plantissue

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2019, 02:26:16 PM »

I was about to write a post that you might want to buy a Venture if you wanted the capabilty of surveying and fighting and didn't have an Apogee available. And then I remembered that Surveying Equipment is a hullmod that you can just put onto all your logistical ships.

@Locklave. You like the Mule. Really? Why? It's basically like the Venture. You only use it because you happened to pick it up for "free". I regard them as nearly identical in role and style. What is it about the Mule? More cargo space? Shielded Cargo Hull? Faster? Does that reach the tipping point in usefulness?
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2019, 03:03:06 PM »

I was about to write a post that you might want to buy a Venture if you wanted the capabilty of surveying and fighting and didn't have an Apogee available. And then I remembered that Surveying Equipment is a hullmod that you can just put onto all your logistical ships.

@Locklave. You like the Mule. Really? Why? It's basically like the Venture. You only use it because you happened to pick it up for "free". I regard them as nearly identical in role and style. What is it about the Mule? More cargo space? Shielded Cargo Hull? Faster? Does that reach the tipping point in usefulness?

Shield Cargo/Faster (burn and in combat)/250 cargo/cheap to maintain/reliable in a fight (AI controlled)/9 burn base/common and easy to replace/Plenty of OP for mods/Non civilian hull (no extra cost for certain mods).

It's not even when it passes the tipping point, it's that there is no question that it does pass it. Taking one even with 5 D mods can be a solid addition (assuming it's not something that directly undermines it's function). Honestly the bar is also lower for stuff smaller then a cruiser, you expect a cruiser to do more. Hound and Cerberus meet and pass the bar just because they are dirt cheap and have okay cargo space, they even make great cannon fodder in a serious fight because they are so replaceable.

I'd love for Venture to have some charming feature that makes it worth the Supplies/Fuel.

Hegemony Buffalo is a good example of that sweet spot for a totally non combat ship. The military hull mod frees up mod points and a dock mod slot for free. You could toss in lower upkeep and more cargo space or maybe a scanners. It just feels good to have extra options without requirements. Even though it can't fight it's worth the fleet space early-mid game. If a ship can't fight decently (like the Mule) it should be damn good at what it does.

Combat freighters all pretty much hit that sweet spot because they do a job for the fleet and can help out without being useless if things get bad. I was honestly hoping the Venture was a jewel in the rough and I just couldn't see it.

edit:

I Buy Mules, not just find them. 50k about, not a major investment. I usually have 5-6 Mules up until I have my own planet. Can't afford too many non combat ship spaces and cargo is a must have. Shielded to avoid annoying stuff like a patrol taking your AI cores/drugs w/e scav you found that is not allowed on your latest trip. Less stuff to worry about, fly right into the port without concern.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 03:11:49 PM by Locklave »
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2019, 04:31:57 PM »

I'm pretty sure there's something broken with patrols scanning you. Nothing ever comes of it. I fly into ports with AI cores and no shielded cargo, I trade on the black market with transponder on. Nothing ever happens to me, they just scan and find nothing and let me go. I don't consider shielded hull mods to be relevant in any way.
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Locklave

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2019, 05:02:40 PM »

I've had gamma cores taken, I've had drugs taken. They work.
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Serenitis

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2019, 05:20:09 PM »

Venture is okay. Not great, but okay.
Decent cargo space. Free survey gear. Can carry a pile of missiles. Can defend itself. Can tank quite well. Won't slow down trash fleets.
Something that you don't mind finding and tidying up in the right circumstances, but not usually something you'd go out of your way to buy.

I used them a lot more when you could put any fighter in thier bay, but since they got locked to mining drones I'd rather use Mules.
That loss of flexibilty is the only reason I tend to avoid them.
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Tackywheat1

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2019, 05:22:50 PM »

I'm pretty sure there's something broken with patrols scanning you. Nothing ever comes of it. I fly into ports with AI cores and no shielded cargo, I trade on the black market with transponder on. Nothing ever happens to me, they just scan and find nothing and let me go. I don't consider shielded hull mods to be relevant in any way.
This is probably because you have good relations with the faction
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sotanaht

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Re: Venture, why?
« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2019, 07:26:57 PM »

I'm pretty sure there's something broken with patrols scanning you. Nothing ever comes of it. I fly into ports with AI cores and no shielded cargo, I trade on the black market with transponder on. Nothing ever happens to me, they just scan and find nothing and let me go. I don't consider shielded hull mods to be relevant in any way.
This is probably because you have good relations with the faction
I've had them try to confiscate my AI cores (which I always carry because reasons) exactly once since I've been playing on this patch, and I do NOT always have good relations.  Most of the time maybe, but I think the behavior might be a little broken in your favor right now.
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