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Author Topic: How to deal with high-danger systems?  (Read 523 times)

Plan9

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How to deal with high-danger systems?
« on: August 22, 2019, 01:18:41 PM »

I have a system with some really nice planets sitting right next to my current capital colony. The problem is that said system is full of Remnant and nothing I've thrown at them has been able to significantly dent their numbers. I lucked out exploring and have blueprints for both the Paragon and the Astral but facing off against a Remnant ordo ends up with the enemy losing two or three destroyer-sized vessels before all my ships (up to three Paragons and two Astrals so far) are overwhelmed and destroyed.

Am I supposed to just hurl dozens of capital ships one deployment after another at an ordo until I finally whittle it down and then repeat for the other ~7 cruising around the system?
I feel like I must be doing something incredibly wrong but I can't figure out what.
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sotanaht

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2019, 01:37:12 PM »

Obviously this whole thread is spoilers.

Anyway, first off in order to eliminate Remnants from a system (medium or high threat) you must find and kill their station in that system.  Otherwise they just keep getting stronger (might be level/fleet scaling or time, I don't know).

Second, if you want some tips for fighting remnants, my remnant-hunter (ai core farming) fleet is 1 Paragon, 2 Astrals, 3 Odysseys, and 5 Tempests all with max level officers (paragon player).  That's actually 325 deployment, unmodded I would drop one Odyssey.  The Odysseys are pretty key to my strategy though, I tried before with 3 Paragons and they just got overrun, the Odyssey is fast enough to prevent that from happening, but tough and threatening enough to cover my Paragon when necessary.  Usually I can win against ridiculous Ordos with 0 casualties, sometimes a random tempest.

Build specifics
Spoiler
Paragon:
2 Plasma Cannons (hardpoints)
2 Autopulse Lasers
2 Dual flak cannons
unstable injector, hardened shields, auxiliary thrusters, shield conversion - front, resistant flux conduits, automated repair unit, stabilized shields, flux distributor
60 vents, 60 capacitors

Odyssey:
2 Autopulse lasers
2 Tactical Lasers (Front only)
2 Sabot SRM Pods (front)
1 Squall MLRS
1 Longbow Kinetic Bomber
1 Lux Heavy Fighter
Expanded Magazines, Hardened Shields, Integrated Targeting Unit, Resistant Flux Conduits
58 Capacitors, 60 vents

I've run lots of different builds on the odysseys.  Different fighters all work fine, I don't really like the tachyon lance, and I've found the MIRV just gets wasted on shields.  Shields are always the big issue with Remnants, so the sabots/longbows are great.  I don't think expanded missile racks are worth it here.

Astral:
The only thing that really matters here are the fighters.  All one type of bomber, Khopesh, Piranha, and Flash have all worked reasonably well.  I'd probably go with the Piranha just to get some quick kills early on.  Otherwise just focus on the Astrals shields to keep it alive, nothing you put on it will kill anything anyway.

Tempest:
2 Pulse Lasers
Auxiliary Thrusters, Unstable Injector, Hardnened Subsystems, Shield Conversion - Front, 10 Capacitors, 7 vents.

Tempests won't kill much, but they help spread things out a bit early on and they can kill the remaining frigates during cleanup (which they will probably spend the whole mid-fight dancing with on the map edges).  You might consider something else instead of tempests, but I haven't discovered any larger non-capital ship that helps at all.  Last time I tried throwing extra junk in there I ended up losing more of my primary ships.
[close]
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 01:51:58 PM by sotanaht »
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Wyvern

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2019, 01:38:00 PM »

I've had fairly good luck taking them on with groups of Paragons - four Paragons under AI control, with level 20 officers, each set in pairs to escort each other.

This does require the right armament & hull mods, though, and I'd have to go looking for the exact variant I used.  Pretty sure it had plasma cannons (forward hardpoints), autopulse lasers, pulse lasers, HVDs, ion cannons (only in the forward two smalls - leave the rest of them empty), hardened shields, accelerated shields, stabilized shields, assorted other hullmods...

This also requires being able to deploy four paragons, which means you really need about eight of the things to make sure you've a large enough fleet to get enough of a share of the total battle size to put all four on the field.  (Plus, you need to crank battle size to the max.)

And you'll still lose one every now and again, to a Radiant that happened to get, say, 5x autopulse + 4x harpoon pod + missile specialization.

-----

Alternatively, if all you really want is to clear out the Remnant presence: sneak in, start a colony (or multiple colonies if appropriate), and then go away.  Make sure you stay well away from the system for a while.  Build military bases, and the fleets from those will, sooner or later, kill off the remnant fleets and battlestation.  (And you keep away from the system so that cargo convoys remain abstracted; this makes them much less vulnerable to remnant interception than if the game is actually keeping track of all the fleets in the system.)
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

sotanaht

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2019, 01:54:21 PM »

I've had fairly good luck taking them on with groups of Paragons - four Paragons under AI control, with level 20 officers, each set in pairs to escort each other.

This does require the right armament & hull mods, though, and I'd have to go looking for the exact variant I used.  Pretty sure it had plasma cannons (forward hardpoints), autopulse lasers, pulse lasers, HVDs, ion cannons (only in the forward two smalls - leave the rest of them empty), hardened shields, accelerated shields, stabilized shields, assorted other hullmods...

This also requires being able to deploy four paragons, which means you really need about eight of the things to make sure you've a large enough fleet to get enough of a share of the total battle size to put all four on the field.  (Plus, you need to crank battle size to the max.)

And you'll still lose one every now and again, to a Radiant that happened to get, say, 5x autopulse + 4x harpoon pod + missile specialization.

-----

Alternatively, if all you really want is to clear out the Remnant presence: sneak in, start a colony (or multiple colonies if appropriate), and then go away.  Make sure you stay well away from the system for a while.  Build military bases, and the fleets from those will, sooner or later, kill off the remnant fleets and battlestation.  (And you keep away from the system so that cargo convoys remain abstracted; this makes them much less vulnerable to remnant interception than if the game is actually keeping track of all the fleets in the system.)
Give the Odysseys a try, seriously.  The only way I end up losing with the fleet I currently use is by getting my own dumb self killed.  The AI does its job well and as long as I keep killing ships everything cleans up nicely, no matter what the Radiants (plural, I fight up to 3 normally and I've won against 4) end up equipped with.
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Plantissue

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2019, 02:03:40 PM »

Yeah, it sounds like you got a Remnant battlestation in the system. It constantly spawns fleets. Defeating it depends on whether it is a fully functional one or not. The fully functional one isn't too much different from other battlestations. The fully functional one may require certain builds or you will sustain large losses or changing of battlesize.
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goduranus

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2019, 02:37:14 PM »

How else? Overwhelm them with wave after wave of Broadswords and Talons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFEOrgrl7Yo
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Ed

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2019, 03:13:17 PM »

If you have the Imperium mod just get some Matriarchs, install Imperial Target System and the 1000+ range cannons they have, outrange every Remnant ship and kill them from the other side of the map. No escorts needed as the 6 fighter wings each Matriarch has can deal with anything smaller than a Radiant
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Paul_Kauphart

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2019, 04:22:40 AM »

My current Ordo fighting fleet (I use SWP mod by the way) is :
-1 Victory (flagship)
-2 Onslaught
-1 Astral
-1 Eos
-2 Dominator
-2 Eagles

all with max level officers.

It can reliably smash any ordo fleet sent at it (but 2 at once will lead to crushing defeat). Worse case scenario, the ordo fleet I'm fighting is big and I can only deploy the capitals and the Eos, in which case I will setup a defense point on my side of the map, and move the victory in front of it, tanking the initial wave while the rest of the fleet starts killing things. Then after a while I can bring more ships and go on the offensive.


Also, killing an unprotected remnenant battlestation with that fleet was reasonnably easy, I wouldn't try it if it was protected though
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Megas

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2019, 05:59:38 AM »

So far, I have the following fleet:
1 Paragon, 1 Astral, 1 Conquest, 2 Dooms, 2 Mora, 2 Apogee, 9 Drover, 1 Harbinger, 3 Afflictor.

Capitals and Dooms have officers.  Paragon, Conquest, and Dooms tank for the carriers.  Astral has bombers while seven or Drovers send Sparks at stuff.  Can handle one full Ordos fleet without much difficulty.  Can do two at once with some difficulty.  Three or more is too much.  Still trying to optimize my fleet to deal with multiple fleets.  Phase ships may be used in a pinch.  Apogee and Mora are backup if I retreat or lose some Drover.  (Income is high enough that I can easily replace Drovers.  Those killed get recovered for Sparks before getting scuttled.)

Anything that is not Remnant gets flattened very quickly.  Humans seem weak compared to Remnant.  Only thing that comes close is the high tech Star Fortress.

I doubt I can use twenty Drovers because I do not have the officers.
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Thaago

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2019, 10:56:22 AM »

So, the basic answer is "drown them in ships". However, if you don't want to use overwhelming force, there are ways of killing Remnants 'elegantly'.

All Remnants rely on shields and speed to absorb lots of punishment and then get out of range, and almost all have shorter range guns (Brilliants mount HVD's relatively frequently and are one of the few exceptions, as is a beam Radiant). Negating these two advantages while capitalizing on the weakness cripples remnants. Bring kinetic guns on ships with mobility systems, and the ability to disable the enemy: Eagles/Falcons with kinetics and 1 ion beam will lock down Remnants with ease. Now they won't get kills very quickly on their own because they lack "bang", but they make other ships get those kills with impunity. It also helps that they can mount a phase lance or two, fantastic anti-fighter weapons. In order to bring the "bang" you can either bring some gunships like Hammerheads (a little light for fighting Radiants if they get caught out of position) or Dominators, or you can bring fighter and bomber wings, or heck you can even bring missile support ships. While the forums love to dump on Gryphons for having limited ammunition, concentrated missile fire is actually quite potent.

Cruisers can work, but a multi-Radiant fleet can force concentrate a little too well at times and inflict losses: it is worth it to bring a capital for anti-remnant farms. The best capital is either an Onslaught or a Conquest - Odyssey would probably work well too, but I haven't flown one against Radiants so I can't say from first hand experience, and their lack of kinetic weapons is a severe handicap. For Onslaughts, press "F" and crush them under railgun/storm needler/Heavy needler + annihilator fire. Heck, even Mk IX's will work, their heavier rounds are quite useful for inflicting hull damage and the range is nice against fleeing enemies: just bring on the kinetics and overwhelm that beam based PD with annihilator spam. Have some cruiser escorts to cover the engines and just carve your way through the enemy: 1 Onslaught + 2 good cruisers set to escort duty can kill most Ordos without aid. For Conquest, work the flanks and roll up the side, using raw firepower to push enemies back and the mobility system to stop them from venting.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2019, 11:23:26 AM »

I agree with the general sentiment 'more kinetic damage' but you also need to take punches. I think the astral and paragon are both top tier choices. The paragon will just absorb and insane amount of damage. I would probably build it with auto pulse and needlers for flux efficiency and maybe 2x tac lance for finishing ships from far away although 4x auto pulse is pretty nuts. The astral just does so much damage. Probably 2 or 3 longbow wings for remnants and then cobra/dagger/trident are the best IMO. The other unguided bombers are too inconsistent. Flash can work in very dense battles but they are really anti station IMO. I would probably prefer and odyssey to a conquest as well but storm needlers are pretty good vs. remnant so I'm not sure if that is just my bias towards speedy high tech ships.
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Thaago

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2019, 11:30:02 AM »

Astrals would be ok as long as it has some nice bricks to hide behind, but I think Paragons are the wrong tool for the job because of their low speed vs Remnants high speed. Sure they work, but thats just because they are super strong in general. I think they will be either worse than or barely equal to an Onslaught or Conquest, despite costing 60 DP vs 40.
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Megas

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Re: How to deal with high-danger systems?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2019, 01:08:59 PM »

Four lance Paragon is good for taking out all of the small ships in range, due to high burst damage.  (Also good for punishing bigger ships when the rest of the fleet takes out the shield.)  Fulgents, Scintillas, and frigates pop with one or two bursts.  Paragon is good at soaking damage.

Conquest has served me well in Ordos fights.  As long as a Radiant with HILs or lances does not flank it, it can tank decently and pelt stuff with Mjolnirs, kinetics, and Locusts.

I should try Onslaught soon.  I have my doubts due to its flux stats.

Eagles were decent until I farmed enough Sparks to replace them with more Spark Drovers.

Player-controlled Afflictor is sometimes nice to assassinate Radiants if something else can force it to aim shield elsewhere.

I try to pop smaller ships immediately if they present themselves.  It is annoying trying to focus on Radiant, ignore small ship, then they unload Reapers or other big damage gun and cause too much damage.
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