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Author Topic: [0.8.1a] The Nomads, v1.4.11-rc2  (Read 368802 times)

Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #285 on: October 09, 2013, 09:50:38 AM »

I've had the opposite experience in the campaign. Whenever I pilot Nomad ships and go up against the Hegemony or the Pirates even, I always feel woefully outgunned. Sandstorm included.

Ugh I'll never get the balance right.
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Magician

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #286 on: October 09, 2013, 11:40:16 AM »

 Hegemony has all-around good ships both stats and utility wise and together they don't have many obvious weaknesses, also beefy. So factions with narrow specialization can struggle against them sometimes. And nomads is one of these factions, though it's not something bad. It something like rock/paper/scissors and Hegemony has all 3 (maybe not strong, but good, and all three), while nomads have only strong paper. And maybe nomads paper a bit stronger, but they don't have anything else. With built-in weapons it only makes weaknesses more apparent.
 There are 3 parts of balance. Stats. Utility. And ships lineup, or in other words how good factions ships coexist together. And for so called "balance" it is necessary to balance each part separately. Because if we will try balance utility part by pumping stats it almost never will come out good, probably it will just create more imbalance. And as I said Hegemony has all those parts balanced very good.

 As for facts about nomads:
- they have very specialized weapons, which in certain situation creates great disadvantage; it is utility part. Fast example - komodo or even sandstorm are capable of wasting big chunk of flux while they try to shoot down one very fragile but fast threat. And still miss all shots.
- nomads lack in ships lineup. Komodo mk2 is first attempt of nomads to deploy something beefy. But still not enough. Nomads lack a big variety of ships between komodo and capitals. And by this I don't mean that they need 10 new ships, I mean that they need 1-3 bigger, tougher cruiser like ships which are capable of doing cruiser size tasks. Also almost every ship has same task on the battlefield (which is also limited by weapons). Only frigate with long range maser and scorpion have distinct jobs. Built-in weapons don't help too, making it impossible to add variety to nomads fleet. It means that if you ever run into situation where you want your ships to do something else, you are screwed, because they have only one specialization(and mostly same!) from frigate to capital. I will continue previous example - now imagine that long range enemy appears while fleet struggles with evasive threats.

I like nomads and I appreciate your awesome work, and I often use some ships from nomads faction(thats the funny part - some nomads ships are very good when used in fleets of other factions). But because you brought up balancing against hegemony, I decided to post my thoughts. In short it is hard to balance nomads against other factions, because they require some depth development to be fully independent faction capable of taking on anyone in Starsector.
But because I am not that huge fan of all this balancing stuff, in my opinion nomads are pretty good as is. But they definitely have potential to become even more interesting faction.

(Also both new frigate and Mother are very cute)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2013, 11:42:12 AM by Magician »
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Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #287 on: October 09, 2013, 11:55:37 AM »

Magician, thank you for this detailed analysis. I find that I agree with you about balance vs. specialization as it applies to the Nomads.

The future of the faction holds some interesting opportunities for variety, then, since all the ships are indeed very similar in what they are capable of handling. Rock, paper, scissors, etc; very good analogy. The next two ships in line I plan to create are going to be fun I think. Maybe I'll try to address the variety problem with these ships and more to come.

The Flycatcher is going to solve the problem of trying to have fighters in very small Nomad fleets. It's going to be an ultralight carrier, with only drones for defense. That way you won't need a Gila Monster if you plan to have fighters.

The Rattlesnake Heavy Cruiser is going to fill some of the gap I've got between the Komodo and the capital ships. It's going to be heavily armored and slow, and it's going to have some new weapons. One of the weapons is a ridiculous three-barrel heavy maser that I've been calling The Ripper because it reminds me of the weapon by the same name from the classic Duke Nukem' 3D. Another new weapon is going to be a special energy-missile launcher (think Star Trek-style photon torpedos) that regenerates charges, and has excellent seeking capability similar to the Salamander, but without the EMP bonus, just straight HE damage. I've also got plans for a special version of the vanilla Swarmer; but instead of fighters, this missile launcher will only target other enemy missiles/bombs in flight; it's a missile-intercept defense system. I also plan for the Rattlesnake to have two Universal slots so that it can have actual customization. I am still pretty attached to the concept of over-specialization, I feel the weakness that it brings in game is part of the faction's constant conflict, and part of the pull for me that makes it fun.

Anyway, thanks again Magician for sharing your thoughts.
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Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #288 on: October 09, 2013, 04:03:07 PM »


Changes:
- Komodo Mk.II nerfed slightly, now performs closer to intended yet still significantly beefier than its Mk.I counterpart.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2013, 11:57:57 PM by Trylobot »
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Borgoid

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #289 on: October 09, 2013, 06:13:42 PM »

Not sure the Komodo MkII nerf was warranted, Blackrock ships are notorious for having low sustained dps and the AI handles them a bit poorly. The Boxenstien from Junk Pirates can take out Cruisers quite easily and it's a "Superheavy" Destroyer. *shrug* Up to you of course. I suppose it's less okay to have a ship punch above its weight when you're using entirely built in weapons.

As for overall balance a single kinetic weapon on pretty much every Nomad ship would probably solve it :P
Currently Nomad ships are big hard flux energy bricks but raising enemy flux - especially ballistic ships with Kinetic weapons - takes waaay too long and you get pretty heavily punished because of it. There are other problems but that one definitely stands out to me.

The Death Bloom is great by the way, it helps solve the inherent weakness that Nomads suffered in the frigate dueling department and also gives them something a bit higher teir when engaging larger ships.
Adding more ship types will definitely fix the balance problems and I really do like the idea of giving some universal or customizable slots to some ships.
Stripping out weapon customization entirely really does remove a lot of the fun and depth from a player standpoint alone but I understand it from a " oh god how do I balance this" standpoint
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Uomoz

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #290 on: October 09, 2013, 07:34:50 PM »

That sounds right, a bit of customizable slots wouldn't be too bad!
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #291 on: October 09, 2013, 08:45:20 PM »

In my opinion, the death bloom is pretty powerful, although weak. You really gotta alpha strike it when he has high flux, otherwise your frigate is toast!
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Uomoz

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #292 on: October 10, 2013, 06:21:09 PM »

It's THAT time.
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Borgoid

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #293 on: October 10, 2013, 07:19:40 PM »

It's THAT time.
Hammer time?


By the way on the subject of the Death Bloom have you considered giving it a modified, toggleable, version of High Energy focus? It's mostly a terrible idea to fire when you don't have it up especially in 1v1 or 1v2 situations so it feels like a lot of unnecessary interface checking to see whether or not it's viable to fire at any given time.
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Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #294 on: October 11, 2013, 07:10:22 PM »

I might circle back around to it when I've got some other items outta the way. I'm ok with how it is at present.
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Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.2)
« Reply #295 on: October 11, 2013, 11:57:26 PM »



Changes:

Flycatcher (new ship)
  * ultralight carrier, destroyer-class
  * 1 flight deck
  * laser PD and swarmer racks

Gila Monster
  * added two new weapon mounts; moved the fighter launch bays to be more obvious
  * Doom Cannon
      doom cannon projectiles plow through missiles now instead of disappearing on hit (weapon script)

Komodo Mk.II
  * add more visual distinction between original and Mk.II (in the form of bad-ass antennae)
  * slight stat tweaks (very slight de-nerf)

« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 09:47:11 PM by Trylobot »
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Uomoz

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.3)
« Reply #296 on: October 12, 2013, 06:27:48 PM »

Wow, I love all this new stuff!!!  ;D Also I'm aware that the *REDACTED* is getting PIMPED, via a great SS modder  8). I just hope you won't change the armada script anytime soon!

(Flycatcher, one of the BEST shape for a ship I've ever seen in SS. Feels like the millenium falcon mother.)
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Wunder

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.3)
« Reply #297 on: October 13, 2013, 01:31:20 AM »

Thats A Beautifal Mod That Ive Lacked the Courage to download  :'( Can you tell me what its like?
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Trylobot

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.3)
« Reply #298 on: October 13, 2013, 09:43:49 AM »

Thats A Beautifal Mod That Ive Lacked the Courage to download  :'( Can you tell me what its like?

Be Strong, GGMC; I Know That Potential Losses From Downloading A File Are Heavy, But Trust Me It's Worth It.
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FasterThanSleepyfish

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Re: [0.6.1a] The Nomads (v0.9.3)
« Reply #299 on: October 13, 2013, 10:18:15 AM »

Don't mock the new guy! (Using the tras-later-torial mahdingy, perhaps?)
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