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Author Topic: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T  (Read 170148 times)

Dante80

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #180 on: August 08, 2012, 02:50:07 AM »

No feedback yet...T_T

Oh well, some starting WIP pics for a strike frigate design (click on the img for x4 view)...




« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:55:15 AM by Dante80 »
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TaLaR

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #181 on: August 08, 2012, 03:15:41 AM »

From my experience Eventyde & Hydra might be a bit too good, at least compared to their vanilla prototypes. Maulers + needlers on fast, flux-efficient hull with decent shielding, without any serious drawbacks - it's pretty much the best possible combination.

Also Interpid. With 5 MIRV launchers it's an obvious overkill :)

2. Will have to add in ship subsystems. Most of the ship I think will need the speed boost, so as to keep the mod inside the Lore of the faction.

Agreed, though Hydra with skimmers might end up being second only to Hyperion in OPness:)
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Dante80

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #182 on: August 08, 2012, 04:38:46 AM »

 I try to balance all ships according to the vanilla campaign so this kind of feedback is very useful for me, thanks.

Quote
From my experience Eventyde & Hydra might be a bit too good, at least compared to their vanilla prototypes. Maulers + needlers on fast, flux-efficient hull with decent shielding, without any serious drawbacks - it's pretty much the best possible combination.

Hydra - Eventide: when compared to their vanilla counterparts, both ships lack in:
Hull integrity
Armor rating
Flux capacity
Flux dissipation
Shield arc
Shield upkeep
Flux/Damage
Elevated procurement cost


The trade-off is 15 more speed, a small boost in maneuverability, a loadout change restricting energy weapons and a small boost in OP so as to balance the loss of weapon types like beam PD weapons or the AM blaster.

Granted, when the ships are used by a human player survivability is less of an issue due to better use of shielding and flux venting. But this applies to all ships in the game. Moreover, Hydra loses the revered adaptability (2 universal mounts + the ability to sport a double AM blaster - pulse laser combo) its known for, ans Eventide loses the exceptional 360 0,6 shielding that really makes Aurora what it is in major fleet engagements. Lastly, both Medusa and Aurora can be considered OP in the vanilla game due to their overall stats, so I can understand why the same assumption can be made for their customized pirate counterparts.

How do you think can we make both more balanced in vanilla? Any feedback is vastly appreciated.

Quote
Also Interpid. With 5 MIRV launchers it's an obvious overkill

Its a niche Battleship design, so I think that such a loadout is warranted. Here are some stats, compared to the Paragon that it resembles:

Ordnance Points: 28 to 25
Base Price: 188000 to 150000
Hull integrity: 13200 to 18000
Armor rating: 1000 to 1500
Flux capacity: 28000 to 31250
Flux dissipation: 1125 to 1250
OP: 355 to 350
Speed: 48 to 30
Turn Rate: 18 to 10
Shield arc: 90 to 360
Shield upkeep: same percent (0.6)
Flux/Damage: 0.9 to 0.6
Minimum Crew: 540 to 450

Loadout
Intrepid - 23: 5LM - 10MB - 4SM - 4SB
Paragon - 23: 4LE - 4ME - 2MU - 4SM - 9SE
Weighted ordnance points
Intrepid - 43: 15 + 20 + 4 + 4
Paragon - 38: 12 + 8 + 5 + 4 + 9

As you can see, I don't think that overkill would be the right word for this. From the start, I wanted to create a BB design that specializes in support roles. Also, add to this the fact that you won't see any AI controlled ships with MIRVs flying around.

Having said that, How do you think can we Intrepid more balanced in vanilla? Any feedback is vastly appreciated.

Quote
Agreed, though Hydra with skimmers might end up being second only to Hyperion in OPness:)

I'll have to agree on that too. The new subsystems feature is new to me, so I will have to do a lot of playtesting before deciding how to implement it without unbalancing the mod. Thats one of the reasons I asked for feedback in the first place two posts ago...cheers..^^
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TaLaR

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #183 on: August 08, 2012, 05:48:56 AM »

Sure Hydra and Eventide do make some trade-offs, but these are easy to compensate through skilled piloting, as you already noted. And while adaptability is nice, pretty much any possible layout loses in terms of pure flux efficiency & range to mauler/needler combo. Though i'd say these weapons are somewhat OP in vanilla already. It just doesn't have that kind of impact, because vanilla mostly lacks fast & high flux ships to mount them(and kite everything to death). Or at least lacked till introduction of ship systems - Conquest and Eagle with speed 100 kind of qualify, so now Lotus ships position might be not that unique...

Or take for example Aurora shield - yes, it IS better, but Aurora *has* to tank a lot, since it's most viable build (heavy blasters) seriously lacks range. Eventide on the other hand doesn't *need* to tank against anything but capitals/cruiser with ITU, and only their most long ranged weapons even then. Of course Onslaught with Burn Drive might have another opinion:), but i mostly speak of previous version.

MIRVs are similar to Tachyon Lance from previous version, in sense that in sufficient numbers they become uncounterable for most ships. Even fastest ships are unlikely to get a clean dodge against MIRV, point defense usually fails and high damage makes shield tanking limited option. Intrepid just makes all these points more obvious.
On the other hand now we have emp/flares/active flares/fortress shield/skimmer/teleport/pd drones that all can to variable degree decrease efficiency of MIRVs. Not sure whether Intrepid needs any additional nerfs on top of this.

PS: Now that i think of, ease of killing stuff with long ranged weapons in general comes not in the least from fact that ITU is quite rare in vanilla designs, despite being pretty much mandatory hullmod for most cruisers/capitals efficiency-wise...
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:07:44 AM by TaLaR »
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Dante80

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #184 on: August 08, 2012, 06:04:29 AM »

All valid points.  :)

The main problem with additional nerfing of the classes you specify has to do with this:

when the ships are used by a human player survivability is less of an issue due to better use of shielding and flux venting.

Skillful piloting can compensate for any and every disadvantage a skimpily protected hull can give you. Thus, the Lotus focus on speed and lethality can produce some configurations that under the hands of a good pilot may seem a little overpowered.

You have to take into account though the way that all mods that need to be balanced against vanilla work. And this is, 3 way balance.

1. In AI use with the default variants
2. In AI use with the variants you decide
3. In human use with the variants you decide.

For the first 2 categories, survivability is a big issue regarding balance. And this is where Lotus ships fit their niche as Pirate raiders that use hit and run tactics. Thus, any and every additional nerfing would unbalance the ships when used by the AI. At least, thats what happened when I used to playtest before release. I don't know if that still holds in the latest version, a great deal of more testing is needed to ascertain that.

If you have any idea though that could help with making the classes more balanced, shoot away. I'll playtest the living crap out of it,as balance is my main focus here...XD
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 06:07:19 AM by Dante80 »
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TaLaR

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #185 on: August 08, 2012, 06:22:13 AM »

I don't think that nerfing based mostly on how it played out in previous version would be good idea. Their strength in current version seriously depends on what systems they'll get.

In fact systems seriously moved power balance among vanilla ships as well - for example tempest went from being best AI-piloted frigate to somewhere about 3rd best (1 - hyperion, 2 - wolf). Hyperion went from simply being best player-piloted frigate to kind of demigod status, capable of soloing even Paragon... Though that's kind of beside the point:)
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ValkyriaL

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #186 on: August 30, 2012, 03:26:00 AM »

I just noticed a slight error while renaming my own fleets, but the lotus top fleet's name is not correct  its *Flotilla* not Flottila and i personally think the name itself doesn't fit the size of that fleet, a flotilla is just a handful of ships, id rather call it central armada or enforcement fleet or something but that's just my opinion.

EDIT: intrepid battleship has a black dot flying on its own by the side of the right rear missile launcher, maybe a miss when erasing background?
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robokill

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #187 on: August 30, 2012, 02:14:00 PM »

I think you should do a lotus version of dominator most of that ship is guns armor plating and engines and its simple cheap and already have burn drive. Hound, enforcer, and onslaught are good candidates also for the same reasons.

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ValkyriaL

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #188 on: August 30, 2012, 02:22:34 PM »

Those ships would not fit the lotus criteria, they want light and fast ships made for hit and run tactics, those 3 are dedicated close combat vessels, they are slow, heavy, allot of armor and allot of guns. you cant catch a fast convoy with that. =I

EDIT: Dante, could you check your intrepid and top fleet? as i said in the above comment, there's a black spot probably from the background or just simply the collision radius getting *damage graphics* and flottila is misspelled, supposed to be Flotilla.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2012, 02:27:35 PM by ValkyriaL »
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2_Wycked

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #189 on: September 13, 2012, 11:55:38 PM »

Do you have any plans to update the ships with systems and stuff?
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Erick Doe

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #190 on: October 29, 2012, 09:06:26 AM »

Dante, would you like the Vulture to be added to the Conglomerate?

It would just need a change in colour.




If you don't want ships designed by others, that's perfectly okay!  ;)
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ValkyriaL

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #191 on: October 29, 2012, 09:29:28 AM »

I can take it if he doesn't want it =D
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hairrorist

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #192 on: December 12, 2012, 05:53:24 PM »

As a player, I universally prefer the Lotus variants to their vanilla counterparts.  The combination of strike speed, flux efficiency, and extra OP establish them as the clear winners, especially when you consider how extra OP leads to better shield/weapon flux efficiency.

Balance suggestion that might emphasize their strike first strike hard philosophy:
Increase flux capacity by 25-50% across the board.
Cut flux dissipation by 50-75% at least.  Probably 75%, since base cap is much better point for point than base dissipation.
Cut armor in half.
Cut hull strength by 25%.

I'm playing around with changes in these value ranges and the result are ships that really HAVE to rely on that speed to get in, shoot their load, and buzz off to dissipate their flux.  Psychologically it feels like playing a pirate captain, and requires a great deal more from the pilot.  Try it out at least!  Those value ranges are completely arbitrary.  But I think a shift in that direction would go a long way toward making this mod one of the best balanced and most fun mods out there!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 06:20:25 PM by hairrorist »
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Plasmatic

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #193 on: February 25, 2013, 12:44:24 PM »

Is this mod still being worked on?

It hasn't been updated for 0.54.1 :)
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Trylobot

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Re: :: The Lotus Conglomerate v1.10 :: Intrepid to the grave!!...T_T
« Reply #194 on: October 02, 2013, 01:45:57 AM »

Dante80, I'm necro'ing this post! Another release, 0.6a, has come and gone, and your fans are still waiting. Intrepid to the grave!
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