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Author Topic: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry  (Read 1777 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2019, 12:55:20 PM »

Given no limitations on processing power, Fighters could do very good job at dodging even in 2d. Faster ones have enough acceleration relative to their size to dodge most projectiles, if they actually tried. Like in a bullet hell game.
But current fighters just fly in patterns. Much better patterns than 'migratory geese imitation' of past, but still far from intentional dodging.
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Igncom1

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2019, 01:01:02 PM »

I just wish big guns wouldn't actively try to shoot at fighters.

Accidentally hitting a talon with a gauss round is cool as hell, but deliberately trying is just a waste of time and flux.

I need my capitals to focus on their jobs, not to get caught playing with flyboyz.
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TaLaR

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2019, 01:40:38 PM »

@Igncom1

Wrong!
- Plasma Cannon is a big gun, that also happens to be best anti-fighter and anti-missile, as long as targets are densely packed.
- A Paragon can clean up almost whole complement of Astral's fighters in single (failed) attack pass, if it you manually fire 4 TLs in staggered manner (default target selection is badly prone to overkill). Then proceed to kill the helpless Astral.

AI controlled capitals don't use their big guns efficiently against fighters, but it doesn't mean they can't be used efficiently.
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Igncom1

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2019, 01:46:38 PM »

But that is not really my point  :-\

Yeah a MOAB is a really great way of getting rid of a swarm of wasps, but you really shouldn't be firing one at such a target, no matter how actually effective it is and besides we already have 2 large anti-fighter weapons already for that exact job. The laser orb thing-y that I never get around to using and that massive flak cannon.... and now that I think about it the swarmer missile system is a large weapon too, so 3 large weapons for the job.

I just don't want my heavy cruisers and capitals firing their expensive guns at talon fighters or drones! It's a waste of time and flux when they should be focusing on the enemy main line ships.
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Retry

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2019, 01:59:15 PM »

Well, it's the principle. If you don't have enough PD system, you're srewed because YOU DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT TOOL TO DEAL WITH FIGHTER. It's quite an interresting modification of the game, i think this would increase fleet variety because you would'nt just be able to put only big weaponry, or you can but you need an PD escort ship.

Lel nice contradiction, how would REQUIRING certain weapons on ships in any way improve variety. The whole point of the customization aspect of the game is that you can achieve a certain goal with different loadouts (see, having actualy options). Imo this is a terrible idea since it would make fights infuriating, you'd have ships that can't do *** vs fighters, and others that just completely eradicate them. I hate these kinds of mechanics in games since it forces you to play in a certain way unless you actually want to get ***.
You're not required to take anything.

I can opt for literally zero PD for every one of your ships if I choose.  I can opt for exclusively PD weapons for every one of my ships (Burst PD, Vulcans, Flak Cannons, The Large PD Laser), though I'm not sure why I would want to.  Or I could take only short ranged weapons.  Or maybe I only take ships with hard-mounted Safety Overrides.

That just means when I end up encountering some jerk missile boats with Sabots or carriers with Tridents with your PD-less fleet (or Dooms for that matter), or if I encounter literally any combat vessel with my exclusive PD fleet, or if I encounter any fast ships with long-ranged weapons in my short-ranged fleet, or if I encounter a Cruiser or Battleship fleet I can't take out fast in my SO fleet, then I'm going to have a bad time.

Removing the ability to transform my Plasma Cannon or HIL into an improvised all-purpose gun that can obliterate entire missile salvos or an Astral's air arm feels more like removing a cheesy player-only move, not reducing the player's loadouts.  There'd be an additional advantage that a single Talon can't eat your Hellbore shots.

Quote
Fun fact: In WWII they did use the main and secondary guns to shoot down fighters. Granted, they used different ammunition than when firing at ships, but the idea that only the small machine guns or "AA" guns were used is a myth. In fact, the main/secondary guns were longer ranged, more accurate, and had higher kill rates.

The US's primary destroyer weapon and popular secondary gun on larger ships was the 5" 37 caliber gun - specifically designed as a compromise gun capable of shooting at high elevations to hit aircraft while still maintaining anti-ship capabilities.
There's a big difference between the earlier single-purpose guns and the dual-purpose guns.  The dual-purpose guns were designed from the outset to do both roles and would have the required high elevation, turret slewing speed, AA shell fuze setters, and AA fire control systems to actually pull it off, unlike a single-purpose mount.

I'd argue against the idea that they were necessarily more effective.  A majority of the AA kills by the U.S. Navy were from lighter AA guns like the 40mm and the 20mm, not the 5" or 3" dual-purpose weapons.  AA ammunition for really big guns like the 16" aren't even a rounding error and are in the "other" column.

https://www.history.navy.mil/research/library/online-reading-room/title-list-alphabetically/a/antiaircraft-action-summary.html


I like the general concept, with some weapons being able to attack aircraft while others that really shouldn't be able to in a 3D environment, can't.  Rather than just point-defense weapons, though, I'd do an "Anti-Fighter" or "Dual-Purpose" Tag for dual-purpose weapons that allows weapons to hit fighters.  It would include all the PD weapons, plus some others like the IR Pulse Laser or needlers.  An argument for, say, Hephasteus Assault Guns being dual-purpose could be made, but I highly doubt you could do the same for something like a Hellbore.
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Igncom1

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2019, 02:07:47 PM »

I like the general concept, with some weapons being able to attack aircraft while others that really shouldn't be able to in a 3D environment, can't.  Rather than just point-defense weapons, though, I'd do an "Anti-Fighter" or "Dual-Purpose" Tag for dual-purpose weapons that allows weapons to hit fighters.  It would include all the PD weapons, plus some others like the IR Pulse Laser or needlers.  An argument for, say, Hephasteus Assault Guns being dual-purpose could be made, but I highly doubt you could do the same for something like a Hellbore.

But unlike with surface ships fighting aircraft, space fighters and space ships are all in the same medium, space. So the fighters are just small spaceships, rather then vehicles of a completely different type. Like micro frigates of some sort.

While a battleship cannon in naval warfare is designed to fire at other surface targets rather then air, in space everyone is firing at other space targets, so I don't believe there is as big of a distinction to be drawn.

In this instance, space fighters to space ships are more like naval torpedo boats and skiffs then actual aircraft.
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dgs6686

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2019, 02:36:14 PM »

To me, it's not that a large cannon couldn't shoot down a fighter, the idea is just that large caliber weapons would have no chance of being able to track well enough to actually hit a fighter. That is the idea behind using flak cannons to destroy fighters - you don't have to be so precise. Smaller caliber weapons like light machine guns, vulcan cannons, etc... have the necessary tracking to be able to hit with projectiles. To me it makes sense that weapons would need some sort of specialization. That is why the devastator cannon and flak cannons should exist, but really they serve no purpose because any other cannon can do that same thing but also be strong against bigger ships.

Right now PD weapons just seem to be in a very bad spot. They seem to have difficulty even shooting down missiles due to their range being so low coupled with poor accuracy. A lot of ship's shields project out almost as far as the PD weapons can even attack save for the LR pd lasers meaning they have a typically a fraction of a second to shoot the missile down before it impacts your shields.
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Retry

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2019, 02:42:01 PM »

I like the general concept, with some weapons being able to attack aircraft while others that really shouldn't be able to in a 3D environment, can't.  Rather than just point-defense weapons, though, I'd do an "Anti-Fighter" or "Dual-Purpose" Tag for dual-purpose weapons that allows weapons to hit fighters.  It would include all the PD weapons, plus some others like the IR Pulse Laser or needlers.  An argument for, say, Hephasteus Assault Guns being dual-purpose could be made, but I highly doubt you could do the same for something like a Hellbore.

But unlike with surface ships fighting aircraft, space fighters and space ships are all in the same medium, space. So the fighters are just small spaceships, rather then vehicles of a completely different type. Like micro frigates of some sort.

While a battleship cannon in naval warfare is designed to fire at other surface targets rather then air, in space everyone is firing at other space targets, so I don't believe there is as big of a distinction to be drawn.

In this instance, space fighters to space ships are more like naval torpedo boats and skiffs then actual aircraft.
That they're in the same medium doesn't change anything.  Starsector's large naval vessels can rotate in any direction and change vector at ease such that even non-turreted, fixed hard-points (like the Hammerhead's medium mounts) are perfectly viable in space combat against similar-sized or larger ships.  But against fast, agile fighter craft you still want weapons with high tracking rates and high fields of fire.  Not many frigates would be able to effectively be able to turn specifically to engage individual fighter craft with hard-points, barring Hyperions or SWP's Excelsior.

A better analogy would probably be fighters being WWI fixed-wing craft, and Spaceships as Zeppelins, but if the Zeppelins were equipped to fight other Zeppelins for some reason.  Both are 3D environments where the fighters are significantly smaller and faster than the Zeppelins/Spaceship, whereas the anti-zeppelin weapons are unlikely to be effective against fighters as well.
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Plantissue

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2019, 03:39:29 PM »

I rather like that fighters can be shot by normal weaponry. It only seems silly when a hellbore cannon targets fighters and only because its projectile is slow.

I don't see how this hard counter system will add a favourable aspect to gameplay.

There doesn't seem to be any real justification to this idea.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2019, 07:01:35 PM »

I also prefer that all weapons can hit all targets. It could be potentially confusing/frustrating for a new player to not be able to hit the fighters destroying their ship. Also, although a battle ship does not typically aim their main guns at aircraft, if they did manage to aim them properly, the shell would most definitely destroy the aircraft. I don't mind if the AI is more hesitant to fire flux heavy guns at fighters, but the guns should still hit the fighters if aimed properly.
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Retry

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2019, 07:02:14 PM »

I rather like that fighters can be shot by normal weaponry. It only seems silly when a hellbore cannon targets fighters and only because its projectile is slow.
Only?  ???

Are low overall accuracy, awful fire rate, and near-nil turret slewing rate the apex of anti-fighter weaponry?
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Plantissue

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2019, 02:54:58 PM »

Hey, when it hits, it's genius. Hellbores only generally shoot at fighters when there are nothing but fighters to shoot at.
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Megas

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2019, 03:07:02 PM »

Hellbores also have passthrough like plasma cannon.
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Morbo513

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2019, 04:07:28 PM »

I've always found SS' fighter mechanics weird at best in all its iterations since I started playing in 0.65. For what they are I feel they're incredibly powerful - they're practically infinite throughout all but the lengthiest battles, can take a severe beating for what they are and aren't really bothered by attrition.

If it were up to me, they'd behave very differently. Fighter weapons would have negligible effect on capital (for the purpose of this, anything frigate+) ships - bombers would be the only strike-craft with firepower anywhere near on-par with a capital weapon. So, fighter strategy becomes a matter of balancing bomber numbers and targets, against fighters to cover them against those of the enemy, and screen against enemy PD. Right now instead, they're all-purpose - Very few fleet builds can counter fighters without fighters of their own.

Bringing it around to the thread's topic, in this ideal scenario of mine, fighters would have a minuscule chance of being hit by "main" ship weapons (ie a shot would have a high chance of "passing through" a fighter/missile), other than dedicated anti-fighter weapons, or those fired from a ship targeting the fighter directly. They would simply be unable to sustain a hit from anything but the weakest weapons.

I think the majority of ships in such a case would need token PD weapons that produce no flux and offer some deterrent/defence against fighters and missiles by default, while filling a weapon slot with dedicated anti-fighter/PD weaponry would be a big step up. Right now sacrificing a ship's effectiveness in their field on PD weaponry feels wasteful, when a carrier with its fighter wings can currently do a much better job of protecting the fleet from enemy fighters and missiles.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 04:09:22 PM by Morbo513 »
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Asherogar

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Re: Make fighters and maybe missiles only able to be hit by PD weaponry
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2019, 11:52:52 AM »

Yeah,PD weaponry feels rather useless - bad range (around 500 on average),miserable damage even for PD and bad accuracy and target leading. In result PD weapons not only bad in dealing even with frigates (they supposed to be bad at this), but also pretty bad against intended targets. They really need a damage buff against fighters and missles and also a possibility to fire over ally ships.

Bringing it around to the thread's topic, in this ideal scenario of mine, fighters would have a minuscule chance of being hit by "main" ship weapons (ie a shot would have a high chance of "passing through" a fighter/missile), other than dedicated anti-fighter weapons, or those fired from a ship targeting the fighter directly. They would simply be unable to sustain a hit from anything but the weakest weapons.
That sounds pretty good. High chance to dodge primary weapon shots (95% for large,85% for medium and 50% for small for example) gives them great survivability against stray shots and also gives you a mening to use PD weapons. But also leaves you an opportunity to drown an incoming bomber or fighter wing in hail of projectiles from your primary weapons if you REALLY want to put down that wing.
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