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Author Topic: Commanding fighters...  (Read 3392 times)

trademark2

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Commanding fighters...
« on: August 18, 2019, 09:38:54 PM »

I just read a thread that implied we had the option to command fighters before, but it was removed to 'simplify' the combat interface in patch .8. I am just somewhat speechless right now. Part of me wonders if this is addressed in mods, but part of me is just sad that the simple act of ordering a carrier to move somewhere while sending fighters to raid would have to be addressed by mods in a tactical combat simulation.

I would think this decision would translate to, for the vast majority of players...: "This part of the game was much better before .8, but then game features fell victim to more simplification'". Am I wrong? The thread I saw was mostly discussion, lamentations, and workarounds... is anyone else upset that features and functionality takes a backseat to 'simplifying', because it just annoys the heck out of me every time i see something like this.

Just on a side note to simplify this interface I personally would have

1. Move the section title ('Assignments, Direct orders, other') above the section and centered. They are headers, they should look like it. Have each section slightly shaded, with the section header slightly darker.
2. Add labels below the buttons,
3. Get rid of the extra retreat (people can click and drag to order all ships to retreat).

This fixes it. It was not a game design issue. it was, and still is somewhat, a UI issue.

I know the dev loves this simplification stuff, and he did make a good game so I don't want to blast it too much. I just mourn a little every time I see a decision like this.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 09:41:47 PM by trademark2 »
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Kanil

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 11:08:23 PM »

I would think this decision would translate to, for the vast majority of players...: "This part of the game was much better before .8, but then game features fell victim to more simplification'". Am I wrong?

I'd imagine most people don't care. Fighters were dumb in 0.7, and are a lot less dumb in 0.8+. Obviously it's unfortunate for those who wanted to micromanage their fighters and carriers at the same time, but I'd wager most of the population is fine with just using fighter strike.
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AxleMC131

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 11:27:48 PM »

I just read a thread that implied we had the option to command fighters before, but it was removed to 'simplify' the combat interface in patch .8.

Don't get your hair in a knot: it's not actually that simple.

Prior to 0.8, fighter wings showed up in markets and fleets just like other ships; they weren't attached to carriers at all, just a loose wing. Carriers in your fleet were only essential if you wanted to not lose the wing if all its units died (the wing "ship" would only die if all its members were killed and there was no carrier available to make any replacements). Because of that, you could deploy them the same way, and give them the same orders you can give warships.

That's what people will be meaning by saying "the option to command fighters". This "feature" wasn't removed to simplify combat - rather, the entire carrier/fighter system was overhauled to be much more sane and interesting. Granted, a fleet now has less control over its fighters, but as far as still being a major game mechanic, fighters from 0.8 onwards have been a dream come true (at least for me). They're certainly powerful enough.

(That's not to say I wouldn't mind seeing fighters be able to, say, capture objectives as they once were, but fightercraft are now very different to regular warships, and rightly so IMHO.)
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Histidine

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2019, 05:15:37 AM »

My recollection of 0.7 fighter controls (mostly from trying to herd the Piranhas in the For the Greater Ludd mission) was that it was in an anti-sweet spot. The fancy attack run setup it seemed to expect required too much micromanagement to be anything but annoying, but/and it still didn't have the UI that would make it actually effective. The command point would also have to be changed for it to be remotely worthwhile.
If I had to sum it up, I'd say it was trying to be an RTS while not actually having the needed RTS controls.

Spoiler
What I wanted to do: Gather Piranha wings in in one place. When the Dominator is vulnerable, go and bomb it (on my command, or if the AI judges it appropriate), then return to gather point. Wait until wings are at x% combined strength again before attempting another bombing run. Repeat until target is dead, then [either proceed to attack targets independently or return to rally point, I'd want a toggle for this].

As the system stood I'd have to spend valuable command points re-issuing the rally order after each run, and I couldn't even readily see the state of each wing (particularly the crucial "how many bombers are actually armed and ready"). If I needed to change the rally point, that's another CP burned. It'd also help if I could just delegate the matter to the AI and not have to constantly bring up the command menu when I want to pilot my own ship... only that requires an actual AI for the job, and/or a ton of GUI.

In short it had to go one way or the other, and given that Alex doesn't want to make the game an RTS it could only be in the direction of simplification. Así es la vida and all that.
[close]
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Plantissue

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2019, 05:16:32 AM »

There used to be additional fighter commands. Can't remember what the commands were called. You could group all fighters together in a spot. Or split them in appropriate proportions. Then command them all to strike a ship. Which they will do, without attempts of self preservation like other ships do. Over and over again. Such fine control meant that you will be able to destroy ships at will. And repeat.

Basically you had fighters acting in a manner you would expect them to act and it was overpowered. And there was a critical mass problem. The more carriers you have, the better. It still is, but isn't as bad.
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Megas

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2019, 06:04:07 AM »

Before 0.8a, there were no fighter skills.  Carriers and fighters were flat out weaker than warships and obsolete, especially after officers were added in 0.7.  All of those fighter commands did not mean much when your skilled warships or just your solo flagship killed everything more efficiently and without nearly as much finesse required.

Also, ships had hangar space in early Starfarer.  Wings were wiped out if the whole wing was killed (immortal wings came later), and rebuilding wings consumed supplies mid-battle.

Since 0.8, fighters were demoted from ships to weapons.  They became missiles by another name.
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SapphireSage

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2019, 06:20:20 AM »

^ In actuality, for 0.7 fighters it was better to have less carriers as carriers would take up valuable DP needed to deploy fighters. And yeah, in 0.7 fighters = ships so everything you do with ships you did with fighters, like capturing objectives and soaking up your 30 ship limit, but honestly, 0.7 fighters were kinda not great.

Firstly, though this is more a fault of the skill system then fighters, skills were mega OP in 0.7. There were also no fighter skills in 0.7 so fighters did not scale at all in 0.7. This made fighters weaker then warships in the long run.

Secondly, it really simplified carrier usage. Right now, fighters are tied to carriers, and carriers need to be within a certain range in order to deploy the fighters. Carriers also need to balance out Replacement Rate with trying to perform whatever task they're designed for in exchange for fighters being unlimited now. In 0.7 carrier usage revolved around keeping a certain ratio of hanger bays to fighter wings and keeping them in some god forsaken corner as far away from any fighting there was. Also, since carriers did not interact with fighters in any way save for the closest carrier automatically rebuilding new fighters as needed for losses or resupplying bombers.

Thirdly, fighters had a much larger critical mass issue, especially since you spent your DP on fighters as opposed to ships that carried them. Since they didn't scale as above, if you didn't have enough fighters then they were a hindrance as the DP could've been spent on things more useful; however, if you made most of your fighting forces as fighters, then they would run over the enemy forces with minimal input from the player like a more extreme version of Pilums. Especially, because not having engagement ranges made it much easier to ball up all the fighters together, and once they were balled up they generally stayed balled up.

Also, carrier fleets were extremely annoying to deal with. Because a carrier could resupply any and all fighters that had the side effect of making it so that when the enemy, or yourself, retreat. So long as a single carrier lived, every fighter wing would also survive. There were more than a few times that I couldn't pursue enemy fleets with my frigate force because every fighter wing from the enemy was available because a single Heron managed to barely get away. They wouldn't have any replacements, but fighters have generally been bad news for frigates especially when massed.

I mean, while it is true you were able to rally them and move them around via CP in the tac map, I think that all the issues with fighters were handily replaced. While balling up fighters or bombers for a run could be effective, it would also be a drain on your CP in combat, moreso to make it more effective. In turn with the current system, its been encouraged for bombers and fighters to coordinate much more effectively. Try using a longbow with daggers and see how they manage to time their run so that the sabots hit just a moment before the atropos do on their runs.
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Igncom1

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Re: Commanding fighters...
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2019, 06:25:01 AM »

I do miss being able to send fighters out on scout missions from that old version however. It was a nice ability to scout out where enemy carriers were hiding rather then having your whole fleet run around trying to find something or anything to do at battles end.
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