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Author Topic: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map  (Read 1261 times)

winstonthewolf

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i understand if its like a supply fleet or something but everytime i want to focus fire on anything even battleships it starts to run away slowly and just hangs out just outside of my guns range of all ship except fighters/bombers and then my fleet gets chewed up because of this and sometimes i cant do anything because of the CP thing like i get u dont want to make a traditional RTS but the A.I. kinda puts u in the position were u have to
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Alex

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 08:52:45 PM »

(Deleted the duplicate thread.)

Hmm. Consider picking up the Helmsmanship skill, and installing speed-boosting hullmods, such as Unstable Injector and Safety Overrides, and flying faster ships, especially ones with mobility systems. It can indeed be frustrating, but - in addition to fighters, as you've already found - there are many ways in which you can deal with faster ships.
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winstonthewolf

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 09:07:49 PM »

o ya those mods definitely make a difference but what i mean is it feels like there constantly drifting away or kiting even the battleships do it like i totally expect a small ship to out run a huge fleet or big ship im not complaining about that at all.. have u guys ever played star war empire at war like those ships actually got at it even if u give the order to focus fire the enemy computer doesn't just start kiting you right away it sometimes they will do it if your a bigger ship and or fleet but that is about it.. but i will definitely keep playing with the mods u could be right and i could be going full *** on something... also great game a lot of potential
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Alex

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 09:30:21 PM »

Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean about battleships doing that - they're really slow, so it's hard for them to really disengage, right? The best they could do is back off a bit to hide behind their allies, but that'd just be tactics, and doesn't sound like what you mean. And for example ships like the Onslaught have burn drive, so it's a lot easier for them to go forward than it is to back away afterwards.

The [REDACTED] battleship could get out of dodge pretty easily, but that's a bit of a special case. Some of the battlecruisers are pretty speedy, though - both the Odyssey and the Conquest - so I could see that happening, and now that I think about it, those might be the ships you mean. Still, a halfway fast ship could chase them down, the problem would be doing it safely...

I guess just in general, the AI will back off when it feels like it's in a bad spot. For smaller ships, there are definitely a few cases where it's frustrating, and I'd like to look at those specifically. For larger ships, I think it's - in the grand scheme of things - better for the game for them to do that, as otherwise they'd just suicide into your ships, and that'd be less challenging and ultimately less interesting. And, right, there are a bunch of ways to counter it.
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winstonthewolf

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 10:00:38 PM »

sorry if im not really being clear or if im being confusing but ya ur totally right it would be stupid to have them blindly charge and just stay there in a bad spot and i do notice them kinda using some tactics but its not them boosting or anything it just seems like there kitting me or just being pushed back slowly which forces everyone who's been ordered to attack to try and follow unless i tell them other wise or if the fighters get him.. i'll have to record a few fights and have the loadouts for my ships listed to show u guys
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TaLaR

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2019, 10:04:23 PM »

AI is doing the right thing here.
Winning a fight involves more than just barely overpowering enemy flux regen. 1v1 you need to either have huge advantage in firepower to kill before they can disengage or have mobility advantage to prevent them from disengaging in the first place. Or rely on your allies to keep enemy under pressure, while you vent, hold fire and close in with flux boost on (+50 speed, which is huge in capital fights).
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Nick XR

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2019, 11:42:44 PM »

I think there's an edge case where it would make sense to change the current AI behavior to something more suicidal just to help the player keep their sanity.  When fighting [Redacted] or Domain era ships, if my fleet has vastly more deployed OP (currently) it would be nice if the enemy was suicidal instead of it taking another one to three minutes of trying to find the lone frigate corner them blow them up.  Maybe one in twenty times I lose a frigate during this final mop-up, but this scenario really it's just a tax on fun because any other faction would retreat :/

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2019, 02:26:52 AM »

I once had to chase a single derelict drone around the battle map for 20 minutes. That was not pleasant.
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TaLaR

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2019, 02:28:48 AM »

I once had to chase a single derelict drone around the battle map for 20 minutes. That was not pleasant.

Which wouldn't happen if your fleet composition was actually reasonable to fight drones. They aren't fast or strong. Literally any carrier or frigate can kill them easily, as well as faster DEs. Hell, a properly used Dominator or Onslaught could probably catch it with burn drive.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 02:30:54 AM by TaLaR »
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Igncom1

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2019, 02:56:41 AM »

Yeah, anything bigger then a destroyer is easy to catch, anything smaller you just invest in a drover or other small carrier with interceptors/fighters to kill them.

Thunder Heavy Interceptor Wing's loaded into Drovers are my personal suggestion due to their speed, range and ion cannons.

Can I get some additional recommendations on carriers and their load outs below?
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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 09:08:09 AM »

Which wouldn't happen if your fleet composition was actually reasonable to fight drones. They aren't fast or strong. Literally any carrier or frigate can kill them easily, as well as faster DEs. Hell, a properly used Dominator or Onslaught could probably catch it with burn drive.

It was a starting fleet with one extra wolf. Two wolves were chasing that single drone for 20 minutes before it stuck in the corner of the map.
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Alex

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 09:23:35 AM »

Were you piloting one of the Wolves? While the scenarios you and Nicke describe are exactly what I'm talking as far as "frustrating and something to look at", it's hard to imagine how a single Derelict drone can escape one player-piloted Wolf for a meaningful length of time.

Also: all of the ships involved would also run out of peak time and CR within 6-7 minutes or thereabouts, right? I mean, I get that "20 minutes" is an exaggeration, and that's fine. 6-7 minutes is still a very long time for that and it probably feels like more, but when talking about these kinds of things, it helps to be more precise. Like, clearly it wasn't 20 minutes (unless everything was at 0% CR, which would be important to mention), but I have no idea what the *actual* situation was, you know?

(If you're not piloting one of the Wolves, btw: that's exactly the sort of thing where "you're meant to pilot a ship and not just give orders" really comes in. It's possible to do the latter, but these are the kind of rough edges you'll run into by going against the grain of the game.)
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xenoargh

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2019, 09:34:55 AM »

If the AI's set to not retreat, then... well, I could see a newbie struggling for 20 minutes, sure.
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Megas

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2019, 10:08:13 AM »

If they will not fight, they should retreat and let player claim victory.  (If they cannot retreat, then they should go berserk and try to ram the player like a missile.)  Not fun when chasing a frigate or any other ship for several minutes because it will neither fight nor retreat.

I guess the only reason to run away while not retreating is hoping the other side (you) will run out of peak performance first.  But if it is something like enemy frigate running away from your destroyer or cruiser, then it should just retreat off the map because it cannot win in a fight or in a PPT stall war.

Of course, they cannot run away if they stay until CR decays to zero.
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Alex

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Re: fix the a.i. to where u dont have to constantly chase them around a map
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2019, 11:55:38 AM »

For remnants, yeah, I can 100% see this and have a TODO item to stop this from happening. The reason it happens is, though they're already super aggressive, they have shields, and when their flux gets high enough, will try to back off.

For derelicts, I'm not sure how this might happen - the only reason a derelict is going to back off is if all of their weapons are disabled or out of ammo. Or, I suppose, if it's venting. Hmm. I guess the "all weapons out of ammo" case might apply here, actually! Since one of the derelict frigates is a pure missile boat. I'd thought there was a check for this already, though - let me make a note to investigate.
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