Fractal Softworks Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19

Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 12025 times)

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #240 on: September 27, 2019, 02:19:45 PM »

The Atlas has two overlapping(front plus same broadside) universal larges and a front fixed large missile launcher. Plus 2 fighter wings! Its turret structure is really really good.

The problem is:

Onslaught: 40 DP, 360 OP, 600 dissipation, considered one of the worse capitals.
Prometheus mk ii: 32 DP 220 OP, 450 dissipation.

If the prometheus had the same OP/DP as the Onslaught it would have 288. To have similar “post max vent” OP it would need 298(304 for post vent post itu). Now it may be better than an onslaught at that price just due to the universal larges (allowing you to mount autopulse, or like... combo HIL/MK IX) and the total flux/DP.  But it might not be.

Like... the Odyssey has difficulty fitting two large energy a large missile at 280 DP (it also has a better shield, special, and as much dissipation as a max vent Prometheus, so its not like its weak, just a fitting reference) and the Prometheus has 60 less than that.
Logged

Reshy

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1046
  • White
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #241 on: September 27, 2019, 04:09:06 PM »

Quote
Exactly my point that I forgot to put. It's kinda ridiculous to have these big ships and they need a specific weapon out of a whole bunch just to be viable.
Either that or able to perform at its cost.  Apogee and Odyssey would have remained mediocre if plasma cannon was not buffed so much since 0.8.x.  Similarly, the loss of 800 range needlers has hurt Medusa.

Normal Shrike compared to Shrike (P).  Standard Shrike is better than (P) for few specific loadouts (Sabots plus Expanded Missile Racks, or all beams).  For anything else, (P) version is superior.  At least Shrike is cheap compared to other ships, so it can get away with mediocrity.  All I want is for both Shrikes to have at least 80 OP and light hybrid.  Pirates have few ships that are identical to standard versions.  Shrike itself is probably worth its price.  My main gripes is Shrike (P) has so little OP (meaning mounts get left empty), but still generally better than normal Shrike.

Medusa needs Railguns in the universals.  Even with a good loadout, it is roughly on par with Hammerhead.  Medusa is probably fine, except its DP cost (12 is too much).  OP budget is a bit tight.

Apogee is fine, until it gets plasma cannon and Locusts.  Then it punches above its worth of 18 DP.  Not overrated as per OP, but underrated if anything.  Similarly, Astral is also a bit underrated.  With unlimited Recall Device and a skilled bomber captain, it is probably worth 50 DP.  I do not think Recall Device is overpowered, just the lone playable ship with it may be underpriced.

Paragon can be very powerful, but only worth 60 DP if it has long range beams to exploit its range advantage.  With pulse lasers, it is still powerful, but does not perform better than cheaper 40 DP battleships.  Probably a bit worse because it has no mobility system to catch enemies, and not enough range if armed with short-range weapons.  I think 50 DP from before was a better price.

P.S.  One highly overrated ship today:  Hyperion.  It has difficulty killing a medium-sized ship before peak performance times out, under player control.  AI is hopeless with Hyperion.  I have no use for Hyperion in the 0.9.x era.  As it is, Hyperion is worth no more than 10, maybe 12 DP.

Does sound like, in general, the high-tech ships are falling behind in terms of cost/deployment effectiveness.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #242 on: September 27, 2019, 05:19:50 PM »

Nah. High tech ships is just a blind spot for Megas
Logged

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #243 on: September 28, 2019, 02:29:21 AM »

He has interesting opinions. It's best not to take his opinions as facts. Anyhow Goudmindong, I assume you mean prometheus MKII, not Atlas MKII. Have you used it though? I know it has a large from missile mount and two overlapping large ballistic mounts becuase I've fought it, but I've never really been able to buy of recover one for use. So I have no idea how wide the arcs are, how manoeuvrable the Prometheus MKII is, and what the rest of the mounts are like, unlike the Atlas MKII, where we can give layouts and proper opinions on its usage. I don't even know if its small mounts can even cover its own engines from Salamanders. I suppose it'll forever be just an opponent ship. I just find it hard to compare. It might have relatively low dissapitation rate compared with an Onslaught, but it does have 2 fighter bays so part of its ability to fight isn't reliant on dissapitation rate directly. Compared with the Legion, it's flux dissapitation is reasonable.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #244 on: September 28, 2019, 03:06:53 AM »

You can just use Console commands to spawn a prometheus if you don't have a chance to otherwise get it. Or just put it in a mission so you can play around with various builds. It's much easier to see how a ship performs in that way rather than just looking at stats in codex or as you said, fighting against it.
Logged

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #245 on: September 28, 2019, 03:15:45 AM »

You are going to have to tell me how to do it rather than telling me to do it, as I aren't familiar with programming. "Just" put it in a mission you say. If only it was so easy for me, I would had done it already.

I've been asking for the sim to be much more options for a while now so that it is easier to test out builds.
Logged

Grievous69

  • Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #246 on: September 28, 2019, 03:25:07 AM »

I've actually suggested multiple times that same thing, where we can just pick our ships, pick the enemies, and have a fight. Like a custom mission option but from the in-game menu. Playing with officers would also be great. But it seems Alex ain't too keen on that.

Now for the ''modding'' part, I also had zero clue on what do to, so I played with files and let's say I mostly figured out how to do it. So go into the game folder > starsector-core > data > missions and then I just altered the random battle one. Open the missiondefinition.java with notepad, scroll down until you see a list of ships starting with ''addShip'' then somewhere in those lines add the Prometheus mk II. It should be ''addShip("prometheus2_Standard", x);'' where x I think is the probability of a ship to be in a random mission, so just put it at 5 or something. I did the same with Atlas mk II so I could test them both.

EDIT: It's probably smart do to a backup of any files you plan to fiddle with.
Logged

goduranus

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 858
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #247 on: September 28, 2019, 03:49:25 AM »

You are going to have to tell me how to do it rather than telling me to do it, as I aren't familiar with programming. "Just" put it in a mission you say. If only it was so easy for me, I would had done it already.

I've been asking for the sim to be much more options for a while now so that it is easier to test out builds.

Ok man, let's get you in a Prometheus in the simplest way, take you less than 2 minutes:

1.Run Starsector with any save,
2.Open your fleet and pick a ship you don't want any more, strip it and rename it something funny, like "1122334455", and then save game
3.Go to your save folder and open campaign.xml with a word pad
4. Press Ctrl+F and search for that funny ship name, "1122334455" in this case. You should find the funny name in a block of text like this, with the ship type defined with hId one or two lines below the ship name:
Quote
<FMmbr z="138215" o="1" sid="buffalo2_FS" sN="1122334455" t="SHIP" iF="false" id="1e92cf" sUN="false" civ="false" cCiv="false">
<savedVariant z="138216" hId="hermes" v="0" c="0" hVId="buffalo2_FS" vDN="Support" s="REFIT" mAAW="true" gV="true">
5.Change the hId="hermes" or whatever, to hId="prometheus2"
6. Save the campaign file, and load it up in game, and the ship you didn't want any more will turn into a Prometheus Mk2
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 03:59:30 AM by goduranus »
Logged

SCC

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1510
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #248 on: September 28, 2019, 04:00:22 AM »

I have played with Prometheus Mk II for a bit. It's the only ship in the game that can mount a HIL/TL+ ballistics combo and it's decently fun. Its speed of 50 is in between battleship and battlecruiser mobility, and it has burn drive, too. However, its flux stats leave much to be desired, so the best way to use Prometheus Mk II is to pretend it's a heavy cruiser, much like Atlas Mk II. Too bad it's very hard to acquire, in comparison to ubiquitous Atlas Mk II.

Plantissue

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 721
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #249 on: September 28, 2019, 04:01:20 AM »

You are going to have to tell me how to do it rather than telling me to do it, as I aren't familiar with programming. "Just" put it in a mission you say. If only it was so easy for me, I would had done it already.

I've been asking for the sim to be much more options for a while now so that it is easier to test out builds.

Ok man, let's get you in a Prometheus in the simplest way, take you less than 2 minutes:

1.Run Starsector with any save,
2.Open your fleet and pick a ship you don't want any more, strip it and rename it something funny, like "1122334455", and then save game
3.Go to your save folder and open campaign.xml with a word pad
4. Press Ctrl+F and search for that funny ship name, "1122334455" in this case. You should find the funny name in a block of text like this, with the ship type defined with hId one or two lines below the ship name:
Quote
<FMmbr z="138215" o="1" sid="buffalo2_FS" sN="1122334455" t="SHIP" iF="false" id="1e92cf" sUN="false" civ="false" cCiv="false">
<savedVariant z="138216" hId="hermes" v="0" c="0" hVId="buffalo2_FS" vDN="Support" s="REFIT" mAAW="true" gV="true">
5.Change the hId="hermes" or whatever, to hId="prometheus2"
6. Save the campaign file, and load it up in game, and the ship you didn't want any more will turn into a Prometheus Mk2
Thanks, I'll give it a go.
Logged

Goumindong

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #250 on: September 28, 2019, 05:05:23 AM »

He has interesting opinions. It's best not to take his opinions as facts. Anyhow Goudmindong, I assume you mean prometheus MKII, not Atlas MKII. Have you used it though? I know it has a large from missile mount and two overlapping large ballistic mounts becuase I've fought it, but I've never really been able to buy of recover one for use. So I have no idea how wide the arcs are, how manoeuvrable the Prometheus MKII is, and what the rest of the mounts are like, unlike the Atlas MKII, where we can give layouts and proper opinions on its usage. I don't even know if its small mounts can even cover its own engines from Salamanders. I suppose it'll forever be just an opponent ship. I just find it hard to compare. It might have relatively low dissapitation rate compared with an Onslaught, but it does have 2 fighter bays so part of its ability to fight isn't reliant on dissapitation rate directly. Compared with the Legion, it's flux dissapitation is reasonable.

I have. Though not for long. It was by choice rather than luck. I found it so amazingly hard to fit that it wasnt worth more than a cruiser at the time. With max vents and ITU it has 140 DP left for other things. Which is like... the large guns and talons.

Its turret arcs are really good.
Logged

Igncom1

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 619
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #251 on: September 28, 2019, 05:43:16 AM »

Too bad it's very hard to acquire, in comparison to ubiquitous Atlas Mk II.

Don't the pirates have heavy industry in vanilla? I think it's under a tier 2 low tech station. Not the best armed with guns and a decent target to hammer again and again that does the whole sector a favour.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #252 on: September 28, 2019, 09:41:46 AM »

Pilum missiles have extremely low hp, they are among very few missile types that can actually be stopped by token PD lasers. Trying to seriously base tactics on them is too easily counter-able.
Try using more. The same principal as fighters applies to them: Too many targets to effectively counter.
You just need more of them because they are so fragile.

Quote
Plus, Pilums have about the worst compatibility with FMR system. Can't spam like Salamanders due to clip based nature, and dumping like Sabots/Harpoons is nowhere near as threatening.
Thankfully, Pilums have about the best compatibility with FMR system. Because it helps to achieve the weight of numbers above when each launcher gives 6 missiles 'per shot'.

Pila are fantastic for campaign play because very few ships, let alone fleets are capable of dealing with them en masse.
Even the best PD (flak) will falter because it forces the target to run up its flux shooting/tanking silly missiles, leaving them vulnerable to more direct action as they try to back away.

Different approach, different result.

Logged

TaLaR

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #253 on: September 28, 2019, 09:59:59 AM »

Pilums are too fragile to ever achieve a critical mass (in proper sense, like Spark Drovers). Just 2 LRPD (on a Falcon) are enough to shutdown 4 Pilum launchers (on Falcon P). Token PD is enough to stop attempts at Pilum spam.

It may kind of work against AI ships, but only because AI is too easily distracted by Pilums (way more than they deserve) and may lack even token PD.
Logged

Serenitis

  • Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 790
    • View Profile
Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #254 on: September 28, 2019, 10:13:04 AM »

It may kind of work against AI ships
It doesn't kind of work. It does work. They can absolutely achieve critical mass.
Granted, not many people will go to the lengths needed to make it work by building thier fleet around trashmissiles. But that doesn't make it not work.

And what other kind of ships are there but AI ones?
« Last Edit: September 28, 2019, 10:26:32 AM by Serenitis »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 15 16 [17] 18 19