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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 19573 times)

Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #225 on: September 24, 2019, 10:03:51 AM »

What does this so called big difference do? It makes no real difference to your outcome of 'fast torpedo boat with PD'' nor of Igncom's deploying of reaper spam. As you see, neither is particularily unique of the Vigilance.
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #226 on: September 24, 2019, 10:17:06 AM »

Having a missile weapon isn't unique, no. But having a medium mount missile on a frigate with fast missile racks IS unique. And so is the purpose of the frigate.

Does that make it a GOOD overall frigate? No, absolutely not. They get slaughtered very easily by anything putting in any effort.

But if you want a frigate sized missile spewer, there isn't a better option. Unless all you need is a couple small missile mounts.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2019, 10:36:09 AM »

You wrote that Vigilance is one of the best ways to deploy reapers on a frigate, if not the only way. But that as I had described afterwrds is seen to not really be true.

You can go ahead and say that a medium missile mount is unique on a frigate afterwards, but what is the outcome that makes that worth describing? It certainly isn't deploying reapers.
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Thaago

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #228 on: September 24, 2019, 10:37:00 AM »

Vigilances are paradoxically not bad as cruisers escorts - they need a big strong ship nearby to protect them, and then they can support.

My main issue is that they go down really hard to interceptors. Not pretty at all.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #229 on: September 25, 2019, 12:15:05 PM »

I wonder why pirate variants with missing weapons and OP ( Wolf, Afflictor, Shade) have the same DP? In the case of the pirate Wolf, you are very likely to fight and scavenge loads of them. The pirate phase ships are strangely rare as active ships but relatively plentiful on the market. I suppose the idea is to discourage the player away from using these ships. Or perhaps to make it easier for for the player to destroy an overvalued pirate ship. But then Pirate Shade exists which isn't missing mounts, and is reasonable for it's DP in comparison to its normal version.

Also I wonder what are people's opinion on the Prometheus II? I've never gained the opportunity to play around with them and the incentives around combating Pathers being what it is, I've never really fought them in a proper battle or scavenged one either.
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #230 on: September 25, 2019, 12:21:39 PM »

Quote
Also I wonder what are people's opinion on the Prometheus II? I've never gained the opportunity to play around with them and the incentives around combating Pathers being what it is, I've never really fought them in a proper battle or scavenged one either.
32 DP is about right.  Its stats are sub-par, but it can have some nasty loadouts comparable to a Blackrock ship.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #231 on: September 25, 2019, 02:04:14 PM »

Also I wonder what are people's opinion on the Prometheus II? I've never gained the opportunity to play around with them and the incentives around combating Pathers being what it is, I've never really fought them in a proper battle or scavenged one either.
As Megas said it's stats are decent for a low DP capital, although I'd like both MkII capitals to have better campaign stats. They're just way too bad even for a converted piece of metal.
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Terethall

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #232 on: September 26, 2019, 03:29:31 PM »

Agreed on the MkIIs. If they kept a little more of their heritage (a bit more cargo/fuel capacity -- Prometheus is kind of there but not enough for its DP cost) and maybe came with some thematic logistics mods (shielded holds?/augmented drive field?) then they would be nice. It's kind of unclear whether the player is really supposed to be using them. It seems like they'd be most appropriate as salvaged capitals for a midgame mixed exploration/smuggling/piracy fleet composition, but at that stage it's easier and better to spam Colossi, Phaetons, and a mix of Apogees/Hammerheads.

On the original topic, most overrated ship is obviously the Doom; fight me. It's not that it's bad, it's that it's not the second coming of Jesus Christ. Speaking overall regarding forum sentiment and how expensive and rare it is in game, that is. Obviously if you decide the competition is about sensor profile or AI performance against sim opponents or something else contrived then all bets are off.
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Serenitis

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #233 on: September 27, 2019, 01:39:42 AM »

Vigilance is a good platform for Pilum.
It's fast enough to run from almost anything, and has enough OP to fit several useful hullmods. And fast racks works really well with Pilum.
They are made of wet paper though, and must be kept away from the front lines. Either a single timid officer, with all other Vs set to guard them will work. As will just bandboxing the group and manually herding them away from danger.

It's babby's first artillery.
Works well enough to be useful, but has enough downsides that you want to progress to something better.

I'd only put 'close in' weapons like harpoons or reapers on a Vigilance if I had no other way to get those weapons into battle.
The only Vigilance that can reliably survive on the front lines is one controlled by the player. Do you want to fly a Vigilance?


Doom is a good ship, and it has a good system. But I dislike flying it because the system and weapons are 'fighting' for use of the cursor.
Guns aim to face cursor. And missiles home in on whatever was under the cursor when fired. Both complimentary actions.
But I need to move the cursor away from the target to effectively use the mines.

It's a similar problem to the Hyperion.
Extra micromanagement which requires extra thought and 'twitch' behaviour on top of everything else, while in a fast moving situation. Not a fan tbh.
Can't say I'm super disappointed by it though, as I have dozens of other options which suit me just fine.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #234 on: September 27, 2019, 02:43:31 AM »

Pilum Vigilance:

Pilum missiles have extremely low hp, they are among very few missile types that can actually be stopped by token PD lasers. Trying to seriously base tactics on them is too easily counter-able.

Plus, Pilums have about the worst compatibility with FMR system. Can't spam like Salamanders due to clip based nature, and dumping like Sabots/Harpoons is nowhere near as threatening.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #235 on: September 27, 2019, 05:41:21 AM »

It just struck me that I don't actually know the weapon arc of the Prometheus MkII, nor have I had the opportunity to get one, so I have no idea about how the ship weapon arcs go. There is no no real reason to deliberaly seek to fight Pather fleets and so it's like a black box of knowledge. From the sounds of it, nobody else had the opportunity to use it either. Unlike Atlas MkII, it is not readily available to buy or recover. I can't seem to find blueprints for it. It's moderately fast for a Capital. It's got two fighter wings, which always seem to be trash fighters under pathers, and it's like the Legion in that it is built to be exploited from behind. For all we know, it could be drastically under or over pointed.

Doom is good, both as a player and an AI ship. I've never had a problem with its cursor. There's only 2 Turrets and if they need to be constantly firing, just put them on auto fire. If they are "strike" weapons like phase lance or Heavy Blaster, just let go of shift when you are using mines. Being able to deploy mines when phased is so ridiculously powerful. Using mines is fast and as a phase ship you have plenty of time to decide when to fire.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #236 on: September 27, 2019, 02:19:45 PM »

The Atlas has two overlapping(front plus same broadside) universal larges and a front fixed large missile launcher. Plus 2 fighter wings! Its turret structure is really really good.

The problem is:

Onslaught: 40 DP, 360 OP, 600 dissipation, considered one of the worse capitals.
Prometheus mk ii: 32 DP 220 OP, 450 dissipation.

If the prometheus had the same OP/DP as the Onslaught it would have 288. To have similar “post max vent” OP it would need 298(304 for post vent post itu). Now it may be better than an onslaught at that price just due to the universal larges (allowing you to mount autopulse, or like... combo HIL/MK IX) and the total flux/DP.  But it might not be.

Like... the Odyssey has difficulty fitting two large energy a large missile at 280 DP (it also has a better shield, special, and as much dissipation as a max vent Prometheus, so its not like its weak, just a fitting reference) and the Prometheus has 60 less than that.
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Reshy

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #237 on: September 27, 2019, 04:09:06 PM »

Quote
Exactly my point that I forgot to put. It's kinda ridiculous to have these big ships and they need a specific weapon out of a whole bunch just to be viable.
Either that or able to perform at its cost.  Apogee and Odyssey would have remained mediocre if plasma cannon was not buffed so much since 0.8.x.  Similarly, the loss of 800 range needlers has hurt Medusa.

Normal Shrike compared to Shrike (P).  Standard Shrike is better than (P) for few specific loadouts (Sabots plus Expanded Missile Racks, or all beams).  For anything else, (P) version is superior.  At least Shrike is cheap compared to other ships, so it can get away with mediocrity.  All I want is for both Shrikes to have at least 80 OP and light hybrid.  Pirates have few ships that are identical to standard versions.  Shrike itself is probably worth its price.  My main gripes is Shrike (P) has so little OP (meaning mounts get left empty), but still generally better than normal Shrike.

Medusa needs Railguns in the universals.  Even with a good loadout, it is roughly on par with Hammerhead.  Medusa is probably fine, except its DP cost (12 is too much).  OP budget is a bit tight.

Apogee is fine, until it gets plasma cannon and Locusts.  Then it punches above its worth of 18 DP.  Not overrated as per OP, but underrated if anything.  Similarly, Astral is also a bit underrated.  With unlimited Recall Device and a skilled bomber captain, it is probably worth 50 DP.  I do not think Recall Device is overpowered, just the lone playable ship with it may be underpriced.

Paragon can be very powerful, but only worth 60 DP if it has long range beams to exploit its range advantage.  With pulse lasers, it is still powerful, but does not perform better than cheaper 40 DP battleships.  Probably a bit worse because it has no mobility system to catch enemies, and not enough range if armed with short-range weapons.  I think 50 DP from before was a better price.

P.S.  One highly overrated ship today:  Hyperion.  It has difficulty killing a medium-sized ship before peak performance times out, under player control.  AI is hopeless with Hyperion.  I have no use for Hyperion in the 0.9.x era.  As it is, Hyperion is worth no more than 10, maybe 12 DP.

Does sound like, in general, the high-tech ships are falling behind in terms of cost/deployment effectiveness.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #238 on: September 27, 2019, 05:19:50 PM »

Nah. High tech ships is just a blind spot for Megas
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #239 on: September 28, 2019, 02:29:21 AM »

He has interesting opinions. It's best not to take his opinions as facts. Anyhow Goudmindong, I assume you mean prometheus MKII, not Atlas MKII. Have you used it though? I know it has a large from missile mount and two overlapping large ballistic mounts becuase I've fought it, but I've never really been able to buy of recover one for use. So I have no idea how wide the arcs are, how manoeuvrable the Prometheus MKII is, and what the rest of the mounts are like, unlike the Atlas MKII, where we can give layouts and proper opinions on its usage. I don't even know if its small mounts can even cover its own engines from Salamanders. I suppose it'll forever be just an opponent ship. I just find it hard to compare. It might have relatively low dissapitation rate compared with an Onslaught, but it does have 2 fighter bays so part of its ability to fight isn't reliant on dissapitation rate directly. Compared with the Legion, it's flux dissapitation is reasonable.
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