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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 19575 times)

TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #210 on: September 18, 2019, 01:26:08 PM »

Have to agree.  90% of the fight is breaking the shield, the remaining 10% is just waiting for the enemy to die.  Once his flux is high he can't shoot much anyway, because he's doing everything he can to flicker shields and survive a few more seconds.
Lolnope.  I mean, sure, that's how it plays out against lightly armored pirate clunkers, but try that philosophy against anything with heavy armor and you're going to get owned.
Works just as well against Onslaughts and Dominators.  Once their flux is up, they barely fight back as long as you don't let them run away to vent, which is kind of hard to do when they only move at 30

Low tech ships  do have potential to trade armor for flux advantage. But AI isn't smart enough to it properly! It only happens to a limited degree and mostly by accident.

So shield break being 90% still stands. I mean obviously one shouldn't do stupid builds like all Needlers without any HE support, but just minimal inclusion of armor-breaking weapons is enough.
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #211 on: September 18, 2019, 01:27:54 PM »

Even then, any decent HE will permanently smash any exposed armour in seconds. And who's not carrying a little of that now a days?
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Agile

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #212 on: September 23, 2019, 06:47:14 AM »

Yeah, it really boils down to "the AI isn't smart enough".

The player can take an Onslaught and destroy a Paragon by armor tanking, but the AI won't think of that; not even as a Reckless officer. Sometimes they do it out of sheer luck; they pull off a kamikaze run without being owned by torpedos and win the flux fight simply cause they can fire without shielding while their opponent is shielding and firing, but thats a "once in a blue moon AI moments" type deal.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #213 on: September 23, 2019, 01:51:29 PM »

Yeah, it really boils down to "the AI isn't smart enough".

The player can take an Onslaught and destroy a Paragon by armor tanking, but the AI won't think of that; not even as a Reckless officer. Sometimes they do it out of sheer luck; they pull off a kamikaze run without being owned by torpedos and win the flux fight simply cause they can fire without shielding while their opponent is shielding and firing, but thats a "once in a blue moon AI moments" type deal.
The Onslaught only has 250 more armor and 2000 more hull than the Paragon, at the cost of 8000 less flux capacity, 650 less dissipation and worse shield efficiency.  While a player Onslaught might be able to leverage armor to take out an AI paragon, I think that in a player vs player situation (or AI vs AI where the AI was programmed to do that), the Paragon will win, because the Paragon can armor tank too.  But then, the Paragon costs 15 more DP, so it should win obviously.

The Onslaughts biggest advantage is not armor/hull, but weapon types.  3 Medium Missiles in particular make for a lot of flux-free damage to bring the effective damage closer compared to the Paragons 4 small missiles that usually aren't even worth equipping.
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SCC

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #214 on: September 23, 2019, 02:08:10 PM »

But then, the Paragon costs 15 more DP, so it should win obviously.

The Onslaughts biggest advantage is not armor/hull, but weapon types.  3 Medium Missiles in particular make for a lot of flux-free damage to bring the effective damage closer compared to the Paragons 4 small missiles that usually aren't even worth equipping.
20 more DP (Onslaught's 40, Paragon's 60) and 4 medium missiles, not 3.
I think that currently the biggest issue with armour-tanking ships is that they don't shield flicker aggressively enough. They often keep shields up, even if only kinetic projectiles are coming in.

Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #215 on: September 23, 2019, 02:14:39 PM »

i think all this is a little too unfair on the AI. The AI does flicker shields. It seems to depend on the weaponry and it's own armour. The AI doesn't seem to aim shields properly though, or take into account that it takes time to extend the shield. The AI also vent flux aggressively, but only when it thinks it is winning.

Shield breaking being 90% of a fight is a bit of an exaggeration. More like 80%. It's more of that we, the players tend to make sure that there are some armour destroying weaponry, so we never really see armour being tanked, at least on the opponent side.
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sotanaht

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #216 on: September 23, 2019, 02:19:40 PM »

i think all this is a little too unfair on the AI. The AI does flicker shields. It seems to depend on the weaponry and it's own armour. The AI doesn't seem to aim shields properly though, or take into account that it takes time to extend the shield. The AI also vent flux aggressively, but only when it thinks it is winning.

Shield breaking being 90% of a fight is a bit of an exaggeration. More like 80%. It's more of that we, the players tend to make sure that there are some armour destroying weaponry, so we never really see armour being tanked, at least on the opponent side.
Flickering shields is dumb.  It causes the AI to stay near max flux, which means they don't fight back because they turn off weapons the higher their flux gets, which means they just die.  In practice nearly any situation where you would consider flickering shields, you are better off just hitting active vent and hoping for the best.  Either you die, or you get back into combat with 0 flux and a lot less armor/hull, but that's better than a guaranteed death on a shield flicker.  The main exception is if you can escape, shield flickering can buy faster ships a little more time to get outside of enemy range, but the AI could easily compare speeds and say "if my speed < enemy speed +X, vent, else flicker"
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goduranus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #217 on: September 23, 2019, 04:02:25 PM »

The Vigilance, I don’t know what it is good for, and have never deliberately used it myself. I guess it’s for harpoon pods? But I don’t like the idea of any ship that can’t kill anything by itself.

Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #218 on: September 23, 2019, 04:22:53 PM »

Vigilance has a number of good fits. Its actually a really good frigate. First off its fast, only the wolf, tempest, and kite are faster(ignoring other phase ships, TT brawler with active, and SO ships) so its not going to get caught.

It has low dissipation but it does have an omni shield and its medium mount is on a turret, which means that its much more effective than normal.

Good options for the energy slot are

Graviton Beam/Ion Beam/Phase Lance

Good options for the launcher are

Salamander Pod, Harpoon Pod, Sabot Pod

The Salamander option is pure support. But it does it really well. Most efficient Salamander per DP so the Graviton/Ion beam harass is just icing

Sabot Pod lets is duel other frigates pretty well though the AI isn't that good with this a pulse laser or phase lance will do plenty of damage. Harpoon lets you dump on things.

I prefer the Gravoton/Ion/Salamander option. (you can actually get Salamander, Graviton, vents to keep shields up and fire the graviton with no flux increase, max caps, eccm, and hardened subsystems without the OP skill)
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #219 on: September 23, 2019, 09:55:25 PM »

i think all this is a little too unfair on the AI. The AI does flicker shields. It seems to depend on the weaponry and it's own armour. The AI doesn't seem to aim shields properly though, or take into account that it takes time to extend the shield. The AI also vent flux aggressively, but only when it thinks it is winning.

Shield breaking being 90% of a fight is a bit of an exaggeration. More like 80%. It's more of that we, the players tend to make sure that there are some armour destroying weaponry, so we never really see armour being tanked, at least on the opponent side.
Flickering shields is dumb.  It causes the AI to stay near max flux, which means they don't fight back because they turn off weapons the higher their flux gets, which means they just die.  In practice nearly any situation where you would consider flickering shields, you are better off just hitting active vent and hoping for the best.  Either you die, or you get back into combat with 0 flux and a lot less armor/hull, but that's better than a guaranteed death on a shield flicker.  The main exception is if you can escape, shield flickering can buy faster ships a little more time to get outside of enemy range, but the AI could easily compare speeds and say "if my speed < enemy speed +X, vent, else flicker"

Flickering is good tactic, but as usual AI is bad at it and uses it incorrectly most of the time. You don't wait until your flux is maxed and armor is torn to start flickering. 2 proper Scenarios:
- Anti-Gauss: 1000-1200 (*60% capital ITU bonus) is range band that only has Gauss Cannons, TPCs and 1000+ base range guns fitted on a Paragon. Shield blocking individual Gauss shots and micro-venting between them is the best thing you can do against a Sniper Conquest.
- Armor-tanking: only raise shield to block larger energy and HE, let kinetics hit armor. You do it with full armor and start at low flux. Needlers are particularly vulnerable to this approach.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 09:57:02 PM by TaLaR »
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2019, 06:49:00 AM »

I agree Talar, but only for 1 on 1 scenarios. The AI behaviour seems built to lay down pressure whilst trying to survive as long as possible, so when it is in trouble, it tries to retreat and survive a long as possible, so that it can be rescued, which to be fair is generally how you want your ships to act in a fleet battle. The AI ship doesn't know when you would rather want do as much damage as possible before being destroyed.

As for Vigilance, it's a cool looking ship, looking a bit like a mini Odyssey, but doesn't seem capable of doing much outside of being long range support of Graviton Beam/Ion beam and Pilum/Salamander. It dies to missiles and fighters that are faster than it. Once cruisers shows up it really doesn't seem capable of doing much. Tried Sabots. Makes the Vigilance a glass cannon frigate. Doesn't survive long.
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2019, 07:23:48 AM »

The Vigilance is, for deployment points, one of the best ways to deploying reaper torpedo launchers on a frigate. If not the only way.

For equal DP, and when set to eliminate they can kill any cruiser in the game with pure torpedo spam, as they should. Otherwise I'd reccormend avoiding them outside of an escort role, as they aren't good otherwise.

Not that other ships can't do this, but it is worth considering once you can churn out suicide vigils for fun and cost effective profit.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #222 on: September 24, 2019, 08:27:15 AM »

Yuuup, in the mission The Last Hurrah, you are given some Vigilances and I found Reapers are the best thing. Put them on escort duty and they'll finish anything that's high flux. They even managed to take half of the Onslaught's hull. Other than the ''fast torpedo boat with PD'', I don't see them being good at anything else as they die quite fast.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #223 on: September 24, 2019, 09:26:53 AM »

If you want frigates specifically that can throw out 4 reapers in a few seconds, for an extra 2 OP, Brawler, Kite, Lasher, Mercury, Wayfarer, Wolf can all do it with their 2 missile mounts and with Expanded Missile Rack. Admittedly it's 4 reapers in 5 seconds as opposed to 3 seconds, but it is not as if it is an utterly unique ability. Wolf in particular I found good success being a fast torpedo boat with reapers and most of the ships I just written can do that and contribute meaningfully in the battle beforehand and afterwards.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 09:36:58 AM by Plantissue »
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #224 on: September 24, 2019, 09:41:38 AM »

They all have small missile mounts tho, which is a big difference.
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