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Author Topic: Overrated (overpriced) ships  (Read 19135 times)

Grievous69

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Overrated (overpriced) ships
« on: August 18, 2019, 12:08:51 PM »

My biggest gripe out of all ships lies with Aurora. I've really tried giving it another chance to justify its position in my fleet, and it's just meh for 30 DP. I get that it's meant to be a fast skirmisher zooming around and finishing off enemies, but that's not the reason for it to be so expensive. The only thing I've found that Aurora excels in, is killing smaller pirate ships. Anything big as itself or even bigger, it struggles to do anything unless it has many Sabots (but that's another problem). Imo it's mostly hurt by not having decent small/medium energy weapons that are good vs shields, so it has to rely on Sabots. I have honestly tried every single possible loadout and it never feels right, there's always something missing. My current setup is 2x Heavy Blaster, 1x Typhoon, 4x Hammers, 1x IR pulse laser in the far front turret, rest is Burst PD with the back synergy mount empty. Hullmods are ITU, Efficiency Overhaul and Front Shield Emitter, rest is put into vents and caps. So far I've had most succes with this since I've built my fleet with a lot of kinetic dmg to help me kill bigger targets. In my eyes, it's basically a bigger Shrike that costs way too much (speedy boi who relies on missiles and can't fight in fair duels).

There's also been talk about Medusa not being worth its DP cost but I haven't played too much with it to have a solid opinion.

Don't let this be a discussion just about these ships, feel free to talk about anything you find unbalanced in vanilla currently.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 12:12:32 PM by Grievous69 »
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2019, 12:13:30 PM »

Aurora is only good if it is loaded with lots of Sabots (all synergies stuffed with Sabots plus Expanded Missile Racks), and I am not sure the AI can use it well.  Sabot Aurora is good under player control, but AI could not overpower a lone Eagle (and eventually died).

Odyssey is another.  It needs plasma cannons to be competitive against serious opposition.  If it is limited to autopulse, it is subpar.  AI just burns to its death.

I will add more later.
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2019, 12:18:19 PM »

Exactly my point that I forgot to put. It's kinda ridiculous to have these big ships and they need a specific weapon out of a whole bunch just to be viable. And almost always they're high-tech ships which is a shame.
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2019, 01:10:38 PM »

Quote
Exactly my point that I forgot to put. It's kinda ridiculous to have these big ships and they need a specific weapon out of a whole bunch just to be viable.
Either that or able to perform at its cost.  Apogee and Odyssey would have remained mediocre if plasma cannon was not buffed so much since 0.8.x.  Similarly, the loss of 800 range needlers has hurt Medusa.

Normal Shrike compared to Shrike (P).  Standard Shrike is better than (P) for few specific loadouts (Sabots plus Expanded Missile Racks, or all beams).  For anything else, (P) version is superior.  At least Shrike is cheap compared to other ships, so it can get away with mediocrity.  All I want is for both Shrikes to have at least 80 OP and light hybrid.  Pirates have few ships that are identical to standard versions.  Shrike itself is probably worth its price.  My main gripes is Shrike (P) has so little OP (meaning mounts get left empty), but still generally better than normal Shrike.

Medusa needs Railguns in the universals.  Even with a good loadout, it is roughly on par with Hammerhead.  Medusa is probably fine, except its DP cost (12 is too much).  OP budget is a bit tight.

Apogee is fine, until it gets plasma cannon and Locusts.  Then it punches above its worth of 18 DP.  Not overrated as per OP, but underrated if anything.  Similarly, Astral is also a bit underrated.  With unlimited Recall Device and a skilled bomber captain, it is probably worth 50 DP.  I do not think Recall Device is overpowered, just the lone playable ship with it may be underpriced.

Paragon can be very powerful, but only worth 60 DP if it has long range beams to exploit its range advantage.  With pulse lasers, it is still powerful, but does not perform better than cheaper 40 DP battleships.  Probably a bit worse because it has no mobility system to catch enemies, and not enough range if armed with short-range weapons.  I think 50 DP from before was a better price.

P.S.  One highly overrated ship today:  Hyperion.  It has difficulty killing a medium-sized ship before peak performance times out, under player control.  AI is hopeless with Hyperion.  I have no use for Hyperion in the 0.9.x era.  As it is, Hyperion is worth no more than 10, maybe 12 DP.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 01:13:43 PM by Megas »
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Grievous69

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2019, 01:18:17 PM »

P.S.  One highly overrated ship today:  Hyperion.  It has difficulty killing a medium-sized ship before peak performance times out, under player control.  AI is hopeless with Hyperion.  I have no use for Hyperion in the 0.9.x era.  As it is, Hyperion is worth no more than 10, maybe 12 DP.

Yuuuuup, in all my years of playing Starsector, not even once have I considered getting it in my fleet. Because by the time I can afford it (or find it), I have better things to pilot. Only played with it in missions, and ok I guess. It can kill a cruiser maybe who's all alone and escape. But most of the time enemy ships are clumped up in a deathball and you'd just get destroyed in a second trying to kill something that will die either way from the rest of your fleet. Definitely overpriced.
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Megas

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2019, 01:31:37 PM »

Hyperion was overpowered before 0.7.x, and it was still good during 0.7.  What killed Hyperion today is 1) smarter AI (they take countermeasures the instant you initiate teleport, not after your ship finishes teleporting) and 2) much bigger endgame fights.  Having enough PPT to kill one destroyer or cruiser, in an endgame fleet with ten capitals.  (8 DP Afflictor can kill one or two cruisers or capitals immediately, and 20 DP Harbinger can wipe several frigates or destroyers with surgical precision.)  Not worth the flagship slot.

Re: Aurora
I tried two heavy blasters, one ion pulser (or third heavy blaster), one salamander pod, burst PD, and the other hardpoints were empty.  While it can take out a small group of small ships like Sabot Aurora, it did not do so as quickly and efficiently (when I piloted it).  What I would like is a good loadout that works for AI.  I do not want to bring Aurora if it can only work at its cost under direct player control, because I have better things to pilot by the time I get an Aurora and all of the weapons.  At 30 DP, I rather pay 5 more OP and pilot Doom to nuke ships with mines and blasters.  Maybe 10 more DP and pilot Conquest with a good loadout to steamroll more ships or pummel battlestations.

Aurora can solo some things that are impossible for other cruisers not named Doom.  Not sure if it is worth it at 30 DP.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 01:34:49 PM by Megas »
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Igncom1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2019, 01:37:16 PM »

Why bring a Aurora when you can deploy 3 Atlas MkII's!

But yeah, it's my opinion that due to high tech's set of weapons they are better served as escorts for atlas carriers rather then as true damage dealers. Assuming you aren't using anything else for that role.
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TaLaR

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2019, 01:48:18 PM »

Hyperion can be decently powerful, it still can bypass shields with HB or Mining Blaster. But Afflictor is cheaper, easier to use and much faster at assassinating.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2019, 01:55:23 PM »

Aurora with 2x pulse laser 1x HB and maybe some IR pulse as well can brawl with stuff ok as longs as you use the lasers to fight shields and the heavy blaster to deal damage to armor (it might even be better to use a phase lance for armor pen). I pretty much always put sabots in the rear facing synergy though and I can't think of a reason not to. Even without expanded missile racks, it's nice to have that option to instantly win a few flux battles. I also always put hardened shields on high tech ships because they really require doubling down on their good shields and flux stats to make up for the terrible energy weapon selection.

I tend to run 2x HB, 2x sabot pods in the two synergies and 4x reapers in the small forward synergies. With expanded missile racks, that's 48 sabots and 8 reapers. It has the alpha to take out cruisers and capitals quickly with the reapers, enough sabots to last out its CR usually and heavy blasters to bully smaller ships. That's my flagship because I find it very fun to pilot, but I tend to sideline it if I find a doom or odyssey. The ship could definitely use a buff, it's definitely not worth giving it to the AI IMO.
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Goumindong

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2019, 02:48:41 PM »

Why bring a Aurora when you can deploy 3 Atlas MkII's!

But yeah, it's my opinion that due to high tech's set of weapons they are better served as escorts for atlas carriers rather then as true damage dealers. Assuming you aren't using anything else for that role.
atlas mk 3 is currently misspriced. Its got its DP swapped with the current Atlas. It should be 24 Deployment points.

The Aurora and Odyssey and Medusa are great and yall are crazy. The Aurora is a little weak due to the hilarious ACG buff making SO dominators stupidly OP. But other than that it still wrecks face.

Yall just need to stabalize its shields
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Recklessimpulse

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2019, 03:34:01 PM »

Wait really? I've done live tests and it's current price seems right it's about on par or a little weaker then a Dominator heavy cruiser losing to the Dominator more often then not.
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goduranus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2019, 06:28:07 PM »

atlas mk 3 is currently misspriced. Its got its DP swapped with the current Atlas. It should be 24 Deployment points.

Wut that was not fixed???!
« Last Edit: August 19, 2019, 09:37:22 AM by goduranus »
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Pappus

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2019, 08:09:51 PM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ1H74wyHq8
« Last Edit: August 18, 2019, 08:14:07 PM by Pappus »
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pedro1_1

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2019, 07:41:50 AM »

Why are you hating the odyssey. I made a ship showcase to show off some of it feats and actually improved on it. In AI hands it can solo well over 100 DP by now - an onslaught being part of that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ1H74wyHq8

so yesterday I got ambushed on a black hole system after going to search for a distres call, three pirate fleets, I not only did manege to avoid them, but whem they lost me I killed two of them, whit just one ship, my odyssey, analising the combat after the battle, it had killed around 250 DP alone, and the third fell pray to the blach hole's event horizon.
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Plantissue

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Re: Overrated (overpriced) ships
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2019, 08:13:44 AM »

Aurora can be a good player ship to kill both smaller and larger ships. The trick I find, is rather counterintuitively to ignore its capacity to mount missiles. Safety overides and mount the fixed small mounts with Antimatter blasters. Leave empty the rearmost fixed small mount for range optimisation. The three foremost medium mounts can be Heavy Blaster, Mining Laser, or more antimatter mounts. The problem is as always, phase ships are always better player ships. As a fleet ship, Aurora is mostly useful because it can move quickly away from danger and so is less likely to be outmatched, but doesn't seem worth the 30 DP. So much of its usefulness is in its speed and Plasma jets. If you wanted to ward off frigates rather than kill them, the Eagle would probably be a better choice.

As a side not, it's also a bit of a shame but the AI "stock" Aurora variants seem to be poorly optimised.

The Medusa is ok in my opinion. A basic Medusa with 2 Pulse Lasers, 4 LR PD Laser and 2 Dual Autocannons beats a sim balanced Hammerhead. Which as it is 12 DP vs 10 DP is as expected.
Oddly enough against the sim Support Hammerhead it simply forever skirts on the edge of the range of the elite medium ballistic guns at range 1400 forever getting shot at, even with eliminate order. It doesn't know how to phase in and out of range it seems. Oddly enough giving Medusa Railguns instead of Dual Autocannon on eliminate, it behaves as expected and dives in and retreat.

As it is I think if the Medusa had 120 speed it would be much better in style. Perhaps with synergy mounts instead.

Sabot Aurora is good under player control, but AI could not overpower a lone Eagle (and eventually died).
I just run simulation a fleet, sub-optimised frigate hunter, Aurora (3 pulse lasers, 1 heavy Blaster, 5 IR Pulse Laser, ITU, IPDAI, IEA, SS, 19 capacitors 34 vents) vs the sim Eagle and it killed the sim Eagle with ease. It didn't even use most of its weapons.

Why bring a Aurora when you can deploy 3 Atlas MkII's!

Because you cannot? 1 Aurora is 30 Deployment Points and 3 Atlas MkII is 72 Deployment Points. You can deploy 2.4 Auroras for 3 Atlas MkII. It's like asking why bring a Dominator when you can deploy a Paragon.

A truly overpriced ship is the Buffalo Mk.II which is so bad I would prefer the Cerberus a combat freighter for the same Deployment Points. The fact that it has so mnay missile mounts that it can contribute to missile spam really overvalued its DP. The Atlas Mk.II is also overpriced. For 24 DP, a Dominator would generally be better. I suppose the Accelerated Ammo Feeder can do a suprising amount of burst damage though.
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