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Starsector 0.9.1a is out! (05/10/19); Blog post: Skills and Story Points (07/08/19)

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Author Topic: Ship Loadouts  (Read 2015 times)

Serenitis

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2019, 10:18:06 AM »

@Megas
Spoiler
I always fit Tempest with Bulkheads because I don't want to "waste" an officer on a ship that doesn't constantly see action, when I'd much rather have them in destroyers or cruisers which do.
My Temps don't usually get deployed except as an escort or in pursuit.
Same ship, different role.

I suppose I can see the logic of putting autocannons on a Sunder, but I've never seen the situation you described as I never have a Sunder fighting off on it's own. And wherever possible it will have a cautious officer and be escorted by one of the above Tempests.
And in any case:
If they rush just drop shields and melt with Sunders active. Guarenteed shield overload in a few seconds.
This is also why you want to put Sabot on the wings. An instant "I win" safety net.

I don't generally use capital transports either, as I don't want to deal with the speed/utility restrictions.
A small herd of Colossi will easily take care of your surveying needs and give a decent amount carrying capacity.
Fuel is trickier, and usually the only time I make an exception to the above generalisation. But then it doesn't come up all that often as I tend not to use capitals much at all, apart from my Odyssey.

I try to use burst lasers as energy PD wherever possible, so never need to make use of the AI mod. In fact, I can't recall the last time I did use it....
Pilum however, I love. They're like the tac laser of missiles. The more you have, the better each of them becomes.

Speaking of which....
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@pedro1_1
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Have you ever used an Odyssey fitted as a pure beam platform?
I mean actually properly used it in campaign, rather than do a few minutes in a sim and decided it was bad.

It is probably the best fleet lead I have used to date. Better even than my Dominator steamroller.
Sure it struggles to really break big stuff on it's own due to no hard flux. And it can't really solo things all that well. But so what? That's what your fleet is for. Why would you ever be deploying this on it's own in a campaign anyway?
And set up like this, it's a captial ship which can touch north of 160 without using it's mobility system.
Aggro a nice target. Kite it to where it needs to be. And then set your fleet on it. Bonus points for sealioning it off the map as it gets destroyed.
Or, deploy just the flagship and bait as many enemies toward the bottom of the screen as possible sniping as many as you can on the way, and when they're all in position drop your fleet on top of them.

And with a beam loadout, you don't usually need to vent much at all. Just let the flux dissipate on its own between targets, or occaisionally drop the shield and let it go that way.
The only times I really need to vent are when I need to chase something and want the no-flux boost right now.
Beams are p. chill with regard to flux generation. And Ody has decent dissipation abilities.

Locust > MIRV simply because it's more reliable against targets that can move. Even with ECCM MIRV is underwhelming for the cost. And that Locust is also cheaper helps.
(And yes, I did forget Ody has ECCM built in. Never really noticed it because I'm not using anything that would benefit from it and so have never looked for it. The more you know. Thank you for enlightening me.)

Xyphos > Spark because Spark does not have 4x flux-free Ion Beams for suppression.
Ion Beams are good. Ion Beams that you never have to flux manage are amazing.
You could claim that Sparks have an advantage due to not using crew, but this is largely moot due to Xyphos never actually getting destroyed anyway as they are always either inside your shield bubble, or directly over the ship.
The only real advantage Sparks have is that they're cheaper.
I've never had any issue with PD coverage from Xyphos though.

I suppose we just have very different uses and expectations for the same ship.
Nothing wrong with that.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2019, 11:07:01 AM »

Quote
I don't generally use capital transports either, as I don't want to deal with the speed/utility restrictions.
A small herd of Colossi will easily take care of your surveying needs and give a decent amount carrying capacity.
Fuel is trickier, and usually the only time I make an exception to the above generalisation. But then it doesn't come up all that often as I tend not to use capitals much at all, apart from my Odyssey.
I bring three capital warships:  Usually Paragon, Astral, and Conquest.  Also bring several cruisers.  With that fleet configuration, I have no choice but to bring at least one Prometheus, and I often bring two!

Herd of Colossi is not an option for me.  Aside from not enough fleet slots, it also has low enough burn that I cannot fit Surveying Equipment on it.  Instead of Augmented Engines, it may get Militarized Subsystems instead (it only needs +1 burn).  The only advantage it has over Atlas is fuel use.  Anything slower than burn 8 (i.e., battleships, cruiser or larger civilians) gets an engine hullmod to keep fleet burn as high as possible.

Surveying hullmods on transports is for smaller ones like Phaeton and Buffalos, those who may not need an engine mod.  Since I do not have room for those, I squeeze it on combat ships with OP to spare, especially the more disposable ones like Mora.  I could even trade Hardened Shields on my Paragon for Surveying Equipment if I really need it.  (Not with two campaign mod limit, so nevermind that.)

I use burst PD when I can.  Burst PD spam comes close to endgame after I find the blueprint and build a heavy industry (and can defend it from endgame expeditions).  Before then, I need to make do with more common beam PD, and those should get IPDAI for them to be powerful enough.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 12:14:32 PM by Megas »
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goduranus

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2019, 12:33:17 PM »

Tempest
Vents: 12
Weapons: 2x Ion Pulser, alternate
Hullmods: Hardened Subsystems, Flux Coil Adjunct

Ion Pulser is usually a terrible weapon due to short range and low sustained damage, but its burst damage is very high. Tempest overcomes these shortcomings by being very fast and has a subsystem for boosting energy damage. A tempest with 2x ion pulsers, with High Energy Focus activated will usually smash a frigate in one salvo, before quickly retreating to vent and recharge the ion pulsers while being protected its terminator drones.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2019, 05:51:36 PM »

Tempest
Vents: 12
Weapons: pulse laser, phase lance
Hull Mods: Safety Overrides, hardened subsystems, flux distributor

Nothing escapes a SO tempest. I've tried a heavy blaster as well, but I like this combo more.
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sotanaht

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2019, 11:25:44 PM »

Isn't tempest supposed to stay at medium/long range?
AI might think so.  I like to touch bumpers when I fly the Tempest.  I equip 2 pulse lasers in alternating fire (easier to aim IMO) and no missile, get as close as possible, unload, then retreat.  More or less exactly how I play Hyperion, except I use Phase Lances there and go for the unshielded bits whereas the Tempest can fight against shields up to Destroyer level no problem.  I still give my AI Tempest pilots the same loadout.  They sometimes struggle to kill, but they don't die either and they make a pretty good diversion.

Might as well post the actual build:
Tempest:
Pulse Laser x2
Auxiliary Thrusters
Unstable Injector
Hardened Subsystems
Shield Conversion - Front
10 Cap 7 Vent

Shield Conversion isn't strictly necessary, but I like it.  Hardened Subsystems is pretty much mandatory on any Frigate, since virtually every fight is going to go past their performance time.  Thrusters go on EVERYTHING. Unstable might not be necessary, but speed is the key and the closer they get, the less they miss.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 10:45:17 AM by sotanaht »
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Plantissue

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2019, 10:14:34 AM »

Even as a playership, too much flux use is dangerous, especially if some of the weapons are on auto.  Of course, I like loadouts that are good for players and AI alike, especially if I want to switch to cheese Afflictor during a fight and have AI take over my former flagship for a short while.
A long time ago I experimented with pairing needlers with phase lance together as a fleet ship. Probably for medusa, but could had been for Eagles as well. The result was that the ship would shoot needlers, the enemy ship would lower the shield and then the fleet ship will either retreat or shoot at the wrong time with the phase lance only hitting the shield.
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Thaago

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2019, 10:28:21 AM »

Both efficiency overhaul and reinforced bullkhead are trap options for combat ships, MAYBE with the exception of reinforced bulkheads on non-officered, high rarity ships that are prone to dying: Omens and Tempests, maybe phase ships. 8, 16, 24, 45 OP cost.
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Grievous69

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2019, 12:33:00 PM »

But Efficiency overhaul allows you to have more combat ships for the same upkeep price. Unless you hit the max ship limit, then you kinda have to squeeze out the most. Although Alex said there won't be a hard cap on ships anymore.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #38 on: August 21, 2019, 02:45:15 PM »

I like Reinforced Bulkheads on ships without officers (and I only have four officers at the moment) because the ship survives and I do not lose stuff.  Until endgame, I put Reinforced Bulkheads on everything without officers.  Without it, if I lost any ship, I reload the game immediately.  With guaranteed recovery, there is a good chance I will recover the ship, take the penalties (from D mods), and keep playing.  Reinforced Bulkheads is a prime anti-frustration feature (until endgame when I can rebuild anything cheaply if I could not steamroll the enemy).  I will not always play perfectly, I will make mistakes, and I do not want to constantly reload if I take losses.

Efficiency Overhaul is great on big ships, especially if I do not have Navigation.  Before Efficiency Overhaul, I needed to bring two or three Prometheus and burn lots of fuel going long distance with my fleet of choice (of big ships).  Thanks to huge colony income I could afford it, though it was still a big dent in income.  What was a bigger problem was markets not selling enough fuel to feed my fleet.  (Cannot buy fuel they do not have.)  I am still convinced that Efficiency Overhaul is a no-brainer to put on at least the biggest ships, ideally all ships.  Now with the aggravating Increased Maintenance and Erratic Fuel Injection mods, I consider Efficiency Overhaul even more important until maybe endgame.

@ Grievous69:  If exceeding fleet cap is anything like exceeding other capacities, then penalties will generally be severe.  The main benefit of the soft ship cap is player can recover as many ships as he wants, then scuttle what he does not want, including his own ships if the new ships taken from the enemy were better.
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intrinsic_parity

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2019, 06:39:11 PM »

I don't see much point in efficiency overhaul because colonies exist. I have an unlimited source of supplies fuel and money so min-maxing efficiency at the cost of combat power seems irrelevant. I also never bring more than 2 capitals anywhere because I never need more than a paragon and astral in any fight. I also do take navigation every time, so that's different but that skill seems like much more of a no-brainer than efficiency overhaul to me.
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Goumindong

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #40 on: August 21, 2019, 10:46:27 PM »

But Efficiency overhaul allows you to have more combat ships for the same upkeep price. Unless you hit the max ship limit, then you kinda have to squeeze out the most. Although Alex said there won't be a hard cap on ships anymore.

But it makes your combat ships weaker for the same price. It also makes them weaker for the same deployment points if you are playing on a limit
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Megas

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2019, 11:05:16 AM »

Colonies only help with constant refueling if you have them everywhere.  If they are mostly in one side of core, and I want to explore long distance on the other side, that is lot of supplies and fuel consumed.  More than once, I had colonies on one side, and the red planet on the other.  Traveling long distance to get there without a babysitting event that needs to be dealt with is a pain.  Also, in my current game, the nearest red system to farm cores is halfway across the sector from my main group of colonies.  I just built a new colony near the system, but it is long distance away from my primary colonies.

I did not use Navigation at first because I could not get that AND max colony skills and enough combat skills to match level 20 officer.  (After resuming my game, I took Navigation 3 immediately.  I will probably pass on Planetary Operations 3, due to cores.)

I would say Navigation 3 is up there with Electronic Warfare 1 and Loadout Design 3.  In theory, player does not really need Navigation 3, but it is very convenient.  Bringing two Prometheus and four tugs is a real drag on the fleet.  With Navigation 3, I can lose the excess support, or I guess I can remove Efficiency Overhaul and keep the second tanker, or remove Augmented Engines and keep four tugs.

Similarly, I have no Officer Management, but I will probably get 1 eventually.  Four officers is really not enough.
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Plantissue

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2019, 02:44:12 PM »

I quite like Reinforced Bulkheads. Idealy you want flux Capacitors and vents first and other defensive measures, but it's possible that you've done that and other hullmods are not available. It has both a logistical and combat use. Efficiency overhaul is pointless for combat ships. It is of course useful for non-combat ships.
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sotanaht

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2019, 12:22:18 AM »

But Efficiency overhaul allows you to have more combat ships for the same upkeep price. Unless you hit the max ship limit, then you kinda have to squeeze out the most. Although Alex said there won't be a hard cap on ships anymore.

But it makes your combat ships weaker for the same price. It also makes them weaker for the same deployment points if you are playing on a limit
There's another major bonus to efficiency overhaul, and that's the rate at which CR recovers.  A ship with low CR is weak or even useless in combat, so recovering CR 50% faster means the ship can be used more frequently.  It helps a lot for ships with SO, those with heavy CR costs to recover and/or slow recovery times (most high-tech), and of course if you plan to chain battles together.  All of this is outside of how many supplies you carry and buy, what it comes down to is how much combat you do.  Personally I do a lot of flying around in circles waiting on CR in between Ordos.
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Megas

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Re: Ship Loadouts
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2019, 07:18:31 AM »

@ sotanaht:  That is another reason why I like Efficiency Overhaul.  It takes ages for CR of big ships to recover.  I have not chained battled much to need it until I started hunting Ordos fleets recently.
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