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Author Topic: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap  (Read 4226 times)

Gray

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Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« on: August 12, 2019, 01:01:08 PM »

Basically suggesting same mechanics for exceeding ship limit as for exceeding fuel or cargo limits.
Allow to recover ships as if there is no cap, but induce heavy supply penalties for having more than 30 (maxShipsInFleet) ships. It would completely resolve all issues with recovering ships on fleet cap in any situation without the need of any additional crutches.
Some special rules for mothballed ships could be incorporated in penalty calculation too.

Such mechanics could be justified lore-wise with smth like ship drive field interference/resonance. (Alongside adding some more justification to excessive wear and tear on any close contact with the enemy fleet.)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 01:09:52 PM by Gray »
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Megas

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 02:13:15 PM »

This was the case before 0.7a.  Before 0.5.3, player could have 100 FP worth of ships (and more ships gave penalties).  During from 0.5.4 to 0.6.5, the cap was variable, depending on skills, and there had to be overpowered combat skills to make solo play viable (since unskilled might not be able to pilot a capital without penalties) in case player does not expand fleet capacity.
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xenoargh

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 03:20:26 PM »

I think it should definitely be a no-cap system.  The caps just mean that we're limited on endgame fleets vs. the AI and that the AI has to get constrained in turn. 

But then again, I really actually enjoy huge, 30-minute battles with endgame fleets, personally.
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Gray

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2019, 04:09:00 AM »

This thread is not exactly about ship limit size (it could be changed in config after all), it's about crutches preventing you from exceeding it, needing to be on every interaction where you could obtain ships.
Such was brilliantly avoided with fuel and cargo limits, but for some reason not with ship limit.

List of issues related:
1) Unable to recover ships when on or near fleet limit.
Going to be partially fixed in next release allowing you to chose from all ships up to the limit, but still unable to scrap your ships simultaneously.
Bunch of custom logics added instead of simple generalized solution.
2) Interaction with derelict ships and stations containing ships on full limit.
3) Any quest interaction for (future) mods or anything adding a ship to your fleet...

All above could be covered with single already present in game mechanics same with fuel and cargo. And it would provide a single formula to tweak for any further changes, without the need to account for multiple separate cases.
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Alex

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2019, 07:56:37 AM »

Hmm. You know, that - the added, ongoing complexity of doing *other stuff* - is compelling argument. I mean, the supply consumption could be crippling, as it is for exceeding cargo capacity etc, so it would be a hard limit in that sense, but the code just wouldn't have to worry about it everywhere.

Didn't think to do that originally because I didn't want to gamify this limit with mechanics around it, making it seem like it's intended to be played around, but, on second thought, it's not that different from the way cargo etc limits work, and those actually are soft limits for the same exact reason - avoiding UI complexity all over the place.

Yeah, ok, I'm pretty well convinced. Thank you both for the suggestion and for making such a good case for it :)
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hunterwar

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2019, 08:13:40 AM »

maybe a option to send recovered ship to the closest planet/station storage? Like, you recovered a ship and the game gives your the option of keep it on your fleet or send to storage at closest star but when you are full you just get the "send to storage" option.
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TotesMcGotes

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2019, 04:29:15 PM »

maybe a option to send recovered ship to the closest planet/station storage? Like, you recovered a ship and the game gives your the option of keep it on your fleet or send to storage at closest star but when you are full you just get the "send to storage" option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_crew might be an interesting article to read...
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Gray

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2019, 01:56:04 AM »

Yeah, ok, I'm pretty well convinced.
Glad to help) You are making a great game.
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BringerofBabies

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2019, 06:19:31 PM »

maybe a option to send recovered ship to the closest planet/station storage? Like, you recovered a ship and the game gives your the option of keep it on your fleet or send to storage at closest star but when you are full you just get the "send to storage" option.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize_crew might be an interesting article to read...

That's exactly what I thought too, but would be too much development to deal with this issue. I'd rather see it be part of a player created fleet feature (along with moving player cargo from storage -> storage, base strikes/invasions like Nexerelin, and defense fleets). For this, a soft cap seems sufficient (although prize crews would definitely be a good QoL improvement).
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dgs6686

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2019, 11:03:34 AM »

I really like the idea of having a fleet capacity similar to fuel and cargo capacity. I think one of the problems I see with late game is the capital ships just completely overshadow all other ship classes so there really is no reason to use anything but them, especially when you factor in that you are limited to the number of combat ships you can have in a fleet. I think bigger ships should cost more "fleet capacity".

A simple way to do it could be something like:
Frigate - 1 FP
Destroyer - 2 FP
Cruiser - 4 FP
Capital ship - 12 FP

However not all ships are created equally. I think an even better way than doing it as a standard cost based on ship size could be to do it in relation to their deployment cost. For example, a Paragon costs 60 pts to deploy in combat while a Conquest costs 40 so a Paragon should be 50% more expensive towards fleet capacity. Ideally this would encourage some fleet diversity and using more frigates and destroyers later in the game instead of just massing capital ships. Additionally, I could see this being a great use of the upcoming 'story point' sink to increase your maximum fleet capacity. Obviously this would just be a soft cap that you could go over at the expense of supplies, and maybe combat readiness maximum. Mothballed ships would not count towards your maximum fleet capacity allowing you to tow home ships that you have salvaged.
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Plantissue

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2019, 11:58:45 AM »

In the past it was a 120 DP cap. It was also tied to skills, so you went from 20 DP to 120 DP. Why deployment points in a battle varies from 80-120 was a possible overhang from it. It was changed, because people wanted to be able to have more than just 1 or 2 capital ships in their fleet. So the cap went to 20 ships, to 30 fleets when people complained it was not enough, I think.

Personally I preferred the Deployment Fleet limit and it perhaps makes a bit more sense for a soft cap to be based on Deployment Points. I think a few of current gameplay problems will be sovled by reverting to a Deployment Fleet limit, as can be seen by gigantic fleets of multiple capitals and cruisers.
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dgs6686

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2019, 12:43:52 PM »

I definitely get that everyone has different play styles and what they want their fleet composition to look like. It's a single player game after all and one person's idea of fun is not going to ruin someone else's. That was my reasoning for saying that story points could be used to increase fleet size limit so if you wanted to have 20 capital ships you could do it, you would just have to spend more story points getting your fleet size to that point.

I personally like the idea of having a more diverse fleet. I always get burned out around the point that my fleet has 6-7 capital ships and end up restarting. The most fun part of the game for me is when my fleet is just coming up with a single capital ship and a few cruisers and still a mix of destroyers and frigates. The fights are still challenging and require tactics to win.
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Sarissofoi

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2019, 11:56:39 AM »

Personally I preferred the Deployment Fleet limit and it perhaps makes a bit more sense for a soft cap to be based on Deployment Points. I think a few of current gameplay problems will be sovled by reverting to a Deployment Fleet limit, as can be seen by gigantic fleets of multiple capitals and cruisers.

Agree. I am tired of seeing dozens of capitals in one pirate fleet.

Asherogar

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2019, 10:43:12 AM »

I definitely get that everyone has different play styles and what they want their fleet composition to look like. It's a single player game after all and one person's idea of fun is not going to ruin someone else's. That was my reasoning for saying that story points could be used to increase fleet size limit so if you wanted to have 20 capital ships you could do it, you would just have to spend more story points getting your fleet size to that point.

I personally like the idea of having a more diverse fleet. I always get burned out around the point that my fleet has 6-7 capital ships and end up restarting. The most fun part of the game for me is when my fleet is just coming up with a single capital ship and a few cruisers and still a mix of destroyers and frigates. The fights are still challenging and require tactics to win.
Same here. I just restart when my fleet of 1 capital + crusiers/carriers and some frigates is not enought to deal with stuff (high alert systems,starfortresses with defence fleets and faction doomstacks)
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SonnaBanana

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Re: Make maxShipsInFleet soft cap instead of hard cap
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2019, 10:15:56 AM »

Basically suggesting same mechanics for exceeding ship limit as for exceeding fuel or cargo limits.
Allow to recover ships as if there is no cap, but induce heavy supply penalties for having more than 30 (maxShipsInFleet) ships. It would completely resolve all issues with recovering ships on fleet cap in any situation without the need of any additional crutches.
Some special rules for mothballed ships could be incorporated in penalty calculation too.

Such mechanics could be justified lore-wise with smth like ship drive field interference/resonance. (Alongside adding some more justification to excessive wear and tear on any close contact with the enemy fleet.)

Good news: it's official now
https://twitter.com/amosolov/status/1168299595891466241
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