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Author Topic: The Conquest and the Gryphon  (Read 2099 times)

BlazingScribe

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The Conquest and the Gryphon
« on: August 12, 2019, 07:02:20 AM »

In my most recent game I've become acquainted with both of these ships. Looking around there seems to be sentiment that both are difficult to use and are most effective both with certain builds and as the player's flagship, possibly to the point of being suburb/gamebreaking. I'm curious about how I can transform these two ships to reach their full capacity, Ideally with the Conquest fighting with aggressive broadsides and the Gryphon acting as a big-ship cracker. Any tips?
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goduranus

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 07:12:10 AM »

Honest, people keep talking about the Conquest, but I don't think it's true. Both ships are at best good for bullying poorly equipped pirates, and don't fare too well vs anything more than a >300k bounty fleet.

Imo, SO Dominator is way better than Conquest now that SO is a thing, and is also cheaper. While Gryphon wouldn't be good against anything with decent shields, so you're down to using it against low tech ships with bad flux/damage ratio.

Plantissue

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 07:52:20 AM »

People like to fetishisize certain ships. I am sure I would be guilty of such as well. For the most gamebreaking player ship are phase ships. Hallowed be their names.

Neither the Gryphon, nor Conquest are game breaking, but under sim conditions and such-like they can show what appears to be a great performance. In Gryphon's case, they have many missile mounts for their size and deployment points, and so under the player can theoretically kill many other ships quickly. Especially with Player Combat skills. Even so, as it isn't fast and rather large, so it will normally get destroyed before it can kill another cruiser.

In the Conquest case, there is a lot of focus on allof the ships of the Capital Ship class, and like the Odyssey it is also described as a "Battlecruiser", which means people do tend to focus a lot on what can be done with it. The Conquest can't do much in reality but snipe at long range with Gauss Cannons and retreat with Manoeuvring Jets. In general, all Capital ship class ships can be configured to seem overpowered, in various videos, especially with mods and player skills. Rarely do these videos show what the actual set up of the player and ship is.

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Igncom1

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 08:14:10 AM »

I'm not sure many people say that these ships are overpowered, quite the opposite in fact.

The conquest is a fast battleship with powerful broadside ballistic and missile capability. Whether as a long range sniper, or short range brawler this ship is never supposed to sit still like other capitals, just shoot and scoot around the enemy fleet. Use it to run around murdering the hell out of enemy escorts and carriers so that when the time comes the enemy battleships and heavy cruisers won't have the support to stop you. All midline ships are like this, utilizing their speed to escape danger and capitalise on enemy weaknesses. They don't out shoot anyone in a standing battle.

The Gryphon is a unique missile ship with the ability to reload it's missile mounts (I think only once per battle) and with destroyer level defences it's not a front line ship. Instead use the power of heavy missiles/torpedoes to annihilate exposed targets and then retreat to safety. It's one of the few ships that can even mount a heavy missile weapon and I believe the smallest to be able to do so. If the luddic path has ever screwed you with their converted torpedo freighters, then you KNOW what this ship can do to an unprepared enemy. Otherwise you can just utilise it as a long range support ship with which to bombard the enemy. MLRS anti-shield missiles can easily batter destroyers down, and can easily turn the tides in a cruiser battle. Swarmer missiles can easily overpower frigates and will ANNIHILATE fighters like there is no tomorrow. Just make sure to equip this ship with missile boosting mods like ECCM to make the most out of it.

I love both ships, but there aren't exactly the anvils that low tech juggernauts like the dominator or onslaught are. These ships are the hammer with which you kill the enemy and so pair with said bruisers quite nicely.
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TaLaR

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 08:44:13 AM »

Conquest is the best stand-off sniper and can beat every other Capital in fair 1v1 without skills on both sides if player piloted.
Though in case of  Radiant, it's only possible because AI doesn't use the Radiant aggressively enough. Well, Radiant is special case anyway and is only solo-able for Paragon and Conquest among direct combat Capitals (didn't check with Astral).

Gryphon is imo lackluster. Player has better ships to pilot and AI can't do much with it.
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Plantissue

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 08:56:16 AM »

All player piloted capital ships can beat AI ships in "fair" 1v1 without skills.
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BlazingScribe

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 09:05:05 AM »

Hm. Well having an aggressive flagship is my preference regardless. Last campaign my flagship, even after I started introducing cruisers and a battleships to the fleet, remained the same old chain-gun/safety override hammerhead that I built up from the introduction. The XIV Legion's at my disposal were so slow and unwieldy by comparison. I think I'd take a lighter battleship if it means I can fight more aggressively and decisively.
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Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 09:12:13 AM »

A well-equipped Conquest is on par with other capitals (except maybe Paragon), whether AI or player piloted.  Conquest with Storm Needlers needs Aggressive officer for AI to use competently.  Other longer-ranged weapons can get by with Steady officer.

Gryphon is too flimsy.  Only time I use it is if I recover one early, before I find other ships, then give it Hammer Barrage to fight like a bigger Enforcer riddled with (D) mods.
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Eji1700

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 09:50:19 AM »

A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship.  It's VERY powerful.

The same loadout will do ok in AI hands as a backline finisher that'll unload harpoons into whatever valid target.  It's basically just sabots on the front, harpoon pods, and then either the mirv or the shield pressure in your large missile.
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Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2019, 09:57:49 AM »

A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship.  It's VERY powerful.
Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword.  Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel.  I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
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Thaago

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2019, 10:49:37 AM »

I don't think either are broken, but both can be effective in either player or AI hands. The Gryphon does not operate well alone due to its low defenses, but it works well either behind or in line with other ships. There are certain Gryphon builds that can rapidly kill large ship when in player hands, but like others have pointed out phase ships are just better at it.

All a Conquest needs to be competitive with the other Capitals is Hardened Shields in order to paper over its weakness, and its impressive flux stats do the rest. At that point its main weakness it being surrounded, just like every other capital. Unlike other capitals, it is far more maneuverable. The AI pilots it just fine, though I always want 2x Heavy Blasters on the front, so that if the AI points its nose at something it will still have firepower. For large missiles I really like 2x Locust - makes it significantly worse at killing capitals, but the anti-fighter is very valuable at covering all the other ships in the fleet.

I like the Gryphon in a fleet already heavy in missiles and fighters, so that it has the benefits of saturation to protect its offense. With that: Sabots in the smalls, Locust in the Large, Harpoons in the side facing mediums is a good general purpose loadout. HVD or Heavy Needler in the turret. Locust gives fighter/frigate/destroyer suppression at all times, the sabots let it burst down an annoying ship that gets too close, and the Harpoons will help finish whatever enemy in the area gets fluxed/overloaded by allies.
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Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2019, 11:03:47 AM »

For me, the only reason I would think about using Gryphon is to have a platform that points Hammer Barrage or Cyclone Reaper forward at the enemy.  (Being able to use Hammer Barrage well is nice because it is the only large open market missile.)  If I want homing large missile, I much rather use Apogee instead.  Gryphon is too fragile to brawl up close then unload with Hammers or Reapers.  (Pre-0.7.2 Aurora with large missile would have been ideal.)  If I do not use Gryphon, but want to use large Hammers or Reapers, who do I use?  Conquest is a bit sluggish to use a forward facing brawler.  (It can do it, but not using broadsides for primary offense feels like a criminal waste.)  Prometheus 2 is a bit awkward to use.  Legion (XIV) is a non-renewable resource that must be found.
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Serenitis

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2019, 11:18:39 AM »

Gryphon is ship that fails to live up to expectation of a dedicated missile boat.
It's gimmick is that it has a large missile mount, which in theory is great.
In practice however, large missiles are either underwhelming or situational. And have some rather large gaps in thier capabilities (there are zero large standoff missiles for example).

The only large missiles worth equipping are designed for close support or strike roles, and require the firing ship to be on or near the front line in order to be effective.
Somewhere the Gryphon is extremely unsuited for, with it's low speed, cumbersome maneuvering, low flux pool and mediocre armour.
It cannot just "dive in to snipe a ship and then retreat to safety". It is too slow, and frequently does not survive the attempt. Because it is not a front line ship. It does not belong there.

I suppose you could put SO on it as that doesn't affect missiles. But then you're playing against the Gryphon's one strength, and undermining the effectiveness (and often use) of it's autoforge system.
You could also downsize the front mount and fit medium missiles, but again doesn't make a huge amount of difference as it just doesn't have the ability use them all that well, due to still being in the 'wrong' environment.

If you relegate the Gryphon to the back lines of your fleet as missile artillery it's still not great as it only has 3 available mounts for Pilum, which for the cost of the ship is terrible.
3x medium missiles is fairly poor armament if that's all a cruiser is contributing.
And even then, you're completely sidelining the autoforge as that's irrelevant for Pilum.

The only time I ever consider using a Gryphon is if I'm at exactly the right stage of the game to support cruisers, and have not yet found anything better for missile throwing.
I have used one as a flagship exactly once. It was not a great experience. Slow. Fragile. Can't defend itself. Depends totally on fleet support for continued existence, which makes it even more expensive to deploy than stats alone suggest. It can't even carry its own fighters without completely gimping some other aspect of its mediocrity.
Mostly they're a huge NOPE and get mulched for supplies.

I might be tempted to use a Gryphon if it had a mobility system.
Or a large mount version of the Pilum launcher existed.
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Thaago

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2019, 11:41:25 AM »

Gryphon does not want Hammers or Cyclone Reapers - neither are suited to its other stats or the fact that ECCM exists and should be installed. Luckily, Locusts are a thing and are amazing. Squalls work well until the ammo runs out (because of ECCM), but even with x4 ammo are a bit limited. Same with Hurrican MIRV - effective, but limited even with 4x ammo.

Apogee vs Gryphon for missile support:
The Apogee gives 1 Large missile slot (Locust), a very good defensive shield for tanking, and 1 Large energy for standoff support or medium assault. It will not have extended racks or ECCM in the vast majority of builds: it simply cannot afford those OP if it wants to be good at its other roles. A very good ship to have, but its missile support is significantly lesser to a Gryphon. Its tank + moderate missiles, a totally different role (and if the fleet isn't using lots of missiles in the first place, a better one, and Apogees need less escorts.)

A Gryphon gives a Locust, 2 Harpoon Pods, and 3 sabot racks, with ECCM, EMR, and then an extra reload. Its single heavy needler or HVD gives light anti-shield support. The Locust will last 4 times longer while being more effective. The 96 Harpoons it can carry (with systems) will be effective. 36 sabots means it can actually get attacked from the front several times and either beat back or even kill the enemy.

I'm not saying the Gryphon is a S-tier or anything. It has its problems - low defense chief among them - but if you want missiles, it brings a ton of high performance missiles.
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TaLaR

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2019, 11:59:58 AM »

All player piloted capital ships can beat AI ships in "fair" 1v1 without skills.
Try that against Autopulse (large slots) + Graviton (med slots) + maxed out flux stats/hullmods Radiant. It is a step above a Paragon, despite being only 40 DP.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 12:02:08 PM by TaLaR »
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