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Author Topic: The Conquest and the Gryphon  (Read 7512 times)

Sundog

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2019, 12:07:09 PM »

Conquest is one of my favorite flagships. Proper battleships offer both more defense and firepower, but the conquest can still hold its own against them while being much more mobile and flexible. With the right loadout I think it can be ideal for battles against any large fleet that doesn't have too many first-rate capitals.
Some tips:
  • Use each broadside for a different purpose. The obvious tactic is kenetic damage on one side and HE on the other, but that rarely works out that well in my experience. I prefer to use one side for general purpose damage (e.g. Mjolnirs) and the other side for either sniping (Gause) or clearing fighters (Devestator & Dual Flak)
  • As a capitol, it has very poor strafing acceleration, so it can often be useful to face the direction you want to move. Combined with maneuvering jets and good piloting, this can allow it to be more maneuverable than many cruisers.
  • Heavy machine guns in the broadside medium mounts can double as PD and very high close-quarters kenetic DPS.
  • It can usually kite or outflank anything that poses a threat to it, so hull mods for speed and range are a priority.
  • Its shield has an atrocious flux/damage ratio, so it's best to avoid using it as much as possible. Accelerated Shields and Heavy Armor work well together against cruisers and weak capitols, but won't help at all against Paragons or Radiants. Against ships like that Hardened Shields is all but mandatory.

Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword.  Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel.  I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
Yeah, this is generally how I feel about it. I've had some luck using a cautious AI piloted Gryphons with a mix of kenetic and HE MRMs linked to the same weapon group, but nothing really noteworthy.

Thaago

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2019, 12:45:19 PM »

Just did some testing: Squall actually does have enough ammo for medium length fights. Squall + all Harpoons Gryphon with steady personality, no officer, killed 2 frigates, 2 destroyers, and a cruiser and raised the shields of several other ships. (I think it might have gotten the final punch in on an Astral as well, but there were a bunch of other ships around and I had glanced away. It helped to be sure.)

It wasn't a super long fight, so I expect the ship will run out of ammo too quickly 10 cap slug fests. But its a bit much to expect a medium (20 DP) cruiser to contribute a whole lot in those fights anyways, and it will contribute more than normal until it runs dry.
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Eji1700

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2019, 02:13:58 PM »

A well kitted gryphon in player hands can alpha strike a capital or two and then just leave the field while you switch to flying another ship.  It's VERY powerful.
Gryphon costs too much to be a player-only glass sword.  Afflictor can do it for only 8 DP and less fuel.  I guess Gryphon as a glass sword is okay if player has that but neither Afflictor nor enough Reapers.
It is more than cheap enough as something that can alpha strike capitals.  Just because the afflictor is nuts doesn't mean that the gryphon isn't good.  It's a reliably safe way to nuke down any capital ship that you want or if in AI hands to have it sit behind a flux hull and nuke whatever it fluxes out.
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BlazingScribe

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2019, 02:33:11 PM »

Huh. You know I didn't expect quite this much active debate on these ships. I guess the meta here is sill in flux even after all these years. That's pretty cool. I look forward to trying out both of these vessels in the ways suggested, albeit with some trepidation as far as the Gryphon is concerned.
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Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #19 on: August 12, 2019, 03:07:00 PM »

Gryphon does not want Hammers or Cyclone Reapers - neither are suited to its other stats or the fact that ECCM exists and should be installed. Luckily, Locusts are a thing and are amazing. Squalls work well until the ammo runs out (because of ECCM), but even with x4 ammo are a bit limited. Same with Hurrican MIRV - effective, but limited even with 4x ammo.
The problem with Locusts and the like is they are good enough for every ship that can use large missiles.  Early in the game, all Locusts get claimed by my better ships, whether Apogee, Conquest, or Odyssey, and any junk disposable ships like that Gryphon I recovered from random derelict or first enemy expedition while I still have my Enforcer/Mule/Shrike (P) fleet get left with the leftovers (such as the Hammer Barrage for sale at Open Market).

As far as Gryphon not being well-suited for front-line.  Well, that is not a big deal if the point of the ship is a disposable clunker that can do some damage before it dies (especially with low ammo for Hammer Barrage) and you do not really care much if you recover it or not, much like the numerous Enforcers and Shrikes pirates use.  Compared to something like Enforcer or Mule, Gryphon is a bit better than them for grunt work early in the game, even if it does not compare favorably with Eagle or other cruiser.

Meanwhile, Starsector does not have a good ship that (is readily available and) can use dumb-fire large missiles well, which is a real shame when Hammer Barrage is open market.  What good is Hammer Barrage in open market if they are no good ships that can use it effectively?  The only ship that might be good enough for Hammer Barrage is Legion (XIV), and that cannot be bought or built, only a few found as treasure.
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Wyvern

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2019, 03:14:15 PM »

I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks.  That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2019, 03:32:13 PM »

I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks.  That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
It is nice.  Too bad I cannot buy or build the Legion (XIV).  What I find as treasure is all I will ever get, not unlike a pristine nanoforge.  Other ships that can use large missiles are either too fragile (Gryphon), need all of the OP for fighters (Astral), or awkward (other ships not LegionXIV).
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Plantissue

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2019, 04:18:23 PM »

I can speak to the value of a 14th battlegroup Legion with 2x hammer barrage and expanded missile racks.  That ship on its own can take out about 2/3 of a battlestation before it runs out of ammunition and has to fall back to fighters for its missile supply.
To which I can only ask, how would you rate a normal Legion? In all my time playing this game I have never come across a blueprint for them, which have lead me to beleive that it is unattainable.
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Wyvern

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2019, 04:34:58 PM »

You absolutely can get the normal legion's blueprint.  It's rare, but not nonexistent.  The XIV Legion, though, is only available in the form of a handful of derelicts.

As for how I'd rate it?  In most cases I actually prefer the normal Legion over the XIV variant; hellbores instead of hammer barrages won't kill things quite as fast - but also never run out of ammunition.  The XIV I have in my current game is valuable because, one, it's the first capital ship I got a hold of, and two, I'm playing around with Nexerelin's "Derelict Empire" starting scenario, for which being able to blow up battlestations is a much more immediately relevant necessity (in a normal game, I'd be going after fleets more than stations), and three, it came with a bunch of d-mods that make it very cheap to deploy but don't weaken the power of its two large missile slots.  Still, it's very likely that I'll replace it with something else when I can afford to.
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Wyvern is 100% correct about the math.

Megas

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2019, 08:41:59 AM »

I probably prefer normal Legion because with normal Legion, I can use heavy mounts for Hellbore and medium mounts for 800 range kinetics (usually Heavy Needler).  Hellbore and Heavy Needler is an effective, relatively flux efficient combo that works well on Legion, and Onslaught for that matter.  Basically, Normal Legion is more likely to have better shot range for brawling.  With Legion (XIV), I need the front small mounts for Railguns, and use the medium mounts for Heavy Mortars, for 700 range.  I occasionally use Legion (XIV) because it is the only good ship that can use dumb-fire large missiles like Hammer Barrage well.  Every other good (or not sub-optimal) ship that can use large missiles has some design flaw that makes it sub-optimal or highly inconvenient to use any large dumb-fire missiles.  With Apogee, its large missile points to the side - too annoying to aim some Hammers.  Conquest, I want to use broadsides to pummel enemies, I do not want to sacrifice that just to fling some Hammers.  Odyssey, it has free ECCM and cannot overlap the large synergy with the left, so it needs a homing missile.  Astral, I need nearly all of its OP for good bombers and hullmods, with almost no OP left for any weapons beyond token PD.
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Plantissue

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Re: The Conquest and the Gryphon
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2019, 12:14:48 PM »

You absolutely can get the normal legion's blueprint.  It's rare, but not nonexistent.  The XIV Legion, though, is only available in the form of a handful of derelicts.

As for how I'd rate it?  In most cases I actually prefer the normal Legion over the XIV variant; hellbores instead of hammer barrages won't kill things quite as fast - but also never run out of ammunition.  The XIV I have in my current game is valuable because, one, it's the first capital ship I got a hold of, and two, I'm playing around with Nexerelin's "Derelict Empire" starting scenario, for which being able to blow up battlestations is a much more immediately relevant necessity (in a normal game, I'd be going after fleets more than stations), and three, it came with a bunch of d-mods that make it very cheap to deploy but don't weaken the power of its two large missile slots.  Still, it's very likely that I'll replace it with something else when I can afford to.
I was saying that I never got a XIV legion blueprint. So it's rather pointless to compare a ship that is rare and unattainable in large numbers with one that one can obtain easily in large numbers. There's no point in making an issue with XIV Legion if Legion will suffice. If it does not, the info is not helpful to those whose RNG did not net them a XIV Legion for use against a battle station. You don't need anything particularily special against non-remnant battlestation anyways.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 12:31:45 PM by Plantissue »
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