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Starsector 0.97a is out! (02/02/24); New blog post: Simulator Enhancements (03/13/24)

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Author Topic: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5  (Read 41296 times)

ReSilence

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2024, 06:18:52 PM »

I might be dumb but with Converted Fighter Bays Hull Mod doesn't the salvage stay the same even without the drones because it's a hull mod BUT with multiple bays don't I get a HUGE supplies maintenance discount?

While not a major issue on the vanilla Drone Tenders with their 12 Crew Compliment and 45 capacity, low OP, and only one bay, I get a massive discount (-15% per bay) on the bigger hulls, turning them into the crew transports with salvage buffs that have almost zero cost of maintenance to top it off.

I think the Reaver is the biggest offender here since his "extra crew needed" is not a downside but an actual benefit.
When I put it on a Reaver I get 100 Cargo space and gain 88 crew space due to the 40% discount And with an S-mod I get -30% of the supply costs/day. I don't get the penalty for my Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills because of the extra bays as well so that's an additional benefit. Even if you slap Additional Berthing for that yet another extra 150 crew (since it has a decent capacity as it is) the daily price goes up only by a smidge, otherwise that 20 survey reduction from Survey Equipment looks fancy. I slapped Cargo Holds on top since it still has 400 capacity worth investing into.

(With Bulk Transport and Makeshift Equipment) This thing:
- Costs me (7.88/-7.12) Supplies with Berthing. Without it and let's say Survey Equipment or Sensors it's just permanent -0.2/day (5.25/-9.75) but I get 150 less crew capacity.
- It requires 88 crew to maintain while having 600 capacity (450 without Additional Berthing).
- Has 1088 Cargo capacity with all the buffs due to innate 400.

For story point, I get 1/2 of an Atlas, a Salvager with extra benefits, and a Valkyrie troop transport in one ship. All for a price of less than 1 Supply per day and only one ship slot taken.
Not by much, but it seems a bit imbalanced.

I don't know if the Salvage Carrier has a lot of crew capacity and crew requirements, or if it has 4 bays like the sprite suggests but if it does, then Converted Fighter Bays provide me with an 80% discount on the crew, so it becomes a crew transport with all the salvagers benefits, but even if it's like a salvage rig it still can carry 200 extra stuff, AND with an S-mod that's -60% discount on the Supplies maintenance.

I think the Salvage Drones hull mod should be incompatible with the Converted Fighter Bays same way you cannot put Safety Overrides on a Monitor with a Flux Shunt, since that -15% discount per bay on an S-mod can get out of hand..., all that aside from the logic that a without salvage drones it still salvages as well as with them while having less crew.
The combo is just imbalanced on bigger hulls that have a lot of crew, that's the reason why the salvage rig doesn't have drones.
The downside is if you've picked Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills; a nomadic salvage fleet kind of makes sense to be carrier-focused with swarms of the tiny fighters yet both those skills suffer from extra bays unfortunately. thus Converted bays is my go-to.
But aside from those two skills the bays with useless drones are a benefit since they serve as a discount option and extra cargo and crew space!

The best way to do it would be to change the bays with Salvage Drones to not be counted by the game as Fighter Bays if it's possible.

The easiest and most fun solution; Remove the bays from the ships entirely and turn the Salvage drones from a fighter bay into an integrated/special weapon for the ship. Perhaps as a torpedo and add a lore description that in times of need the drones with their frontal cutting equipment, sturdy frame, and targeting systems serve as poor makeshift kinetic torpedos that can be sent to distract and target enemy ships' most vulnerable points? Turn them into a kinetic version of an even slower Salamander with more HP but kinetic half of the damage instead, perhaps even place them on top of the bays at the start of the game to see them neatly sitting and primed to be launched from them.
That's how I'd do it to balance it, counter the OP Converted Bays mod, and also be unique. They would serve no purpose but to saturate PD, distract smaller vessels chasing the salvagers, and crash on either shields or hopefully engines.
That's how a salvager and a junker would fight in space - throw his cheap replaceable junk toolbox and a bunch of scrap at the assailant hoping it distracts him or makes him trip, and then start running for your life. ;)
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 06:41:09 PM by ReSilence »
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Gopsky

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2024, 12:20:44 PM »

quote:
Spoiler
I might be dumb but with Converted Fighter Bays Hull Mod doesn't the salvage stay the same even without the drones because it's a hull mod BUT with multiple bays don't I get a HUGE supplies maintenance discount?

While not a major issue on the vanilla Drone Tenders with their 12 Crew Compliment and 45 capacity, low OP, and only one bay, I get a massive discount (-15% per bay) on the bigger hulls, turning them into the crew transports with salvage buffs that have almost zero cost of maintenance to top it off.

I think the Reaver is the biggest offender here since his "extra crew needed" is not a downside but an actual benefit.
When I put it on a Reaver I get 100 Cargo space and gain 88 crew space due to the 40% discount And with an S-mod I get -30% of the supply costs/day. I don't get the penalty for my Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills because of the extra bays as well so that's an additional benefit. Even if you slap Additional Berthing for that yet another extra 150 crew (since it has a decent capacity as it is) the daily price goes up only by a smidge, otherwise that 20 survey reduction from Survey Equipment looks fancy. I slapped Cargo Holds on top since it still has 400 capacity worth investing into.

(With Bulk Transport and Makeshift Equipment) This thing:
- Costs me (7.88/-7.12) Supplies with Berthing. Without it and let's say Survey Equipment or Sensors it's just permanent -0.2/day (5.25/-9.75) but I get 150 less crew capacity.
- It requires 88 crew to maintain while having 600 capacity (450 without Additional Berthing).
- Has 1088 Cargo capacity with all the buffs due to innate 400.

For story point, I get 1/2 of an Atlas, a Salvager with extra benefits, and a Valkyrie troop transport in one ship. All for a price of less than 1 Supply per day and only one ship slot taken.
Not by much, but it seems a bit imbalanced.

I don't know if the Salvage Carrier has a lot of crew capacity and crew requirements, or if it has 4 bays like the sprite suggests but if it does, then Converted Fighter Bays provide me with an 80% discount on the crew, so it becomes a crew transport with all the salvagers benefits, but even if it's like a salvage rig it still can carry 200 extra stuff, AND with an S-mod that's -60% discount on the Supplies maintenance.

I think the Salvage Drones hull mod should be incompatible with the Converted Fighter Bays same way you cannot put Safety Overrides on a Monitor with a Flux Shunt, since that -15% discount per bay on an S-mod can get out of hand..., all that aside from the logic that a without salvage drones it still salvages as well as with them while having less crew.
The combo is just imbalanced on bigger hulls that have a lot of crew, that's the reason why the salvage rig doesn't have drones.
The downside is if you've picked Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills; a nomadic salvage fleet kind of makes sense to be carrier-focused with swarms of the tiny fighters yet both those skills suffer from extra bays unfortunately. thus Converted bays is my go-to.
But aside from those two skills the bays with useless drones are a benefit since they serve as a discount option and extra cargo and crew space!

The best way to do it would be to change the bays with Salvage Drones to not be counted by the game as Fighter Bays if it's possible.

The easiest and most fun solution; Remove the bays from the ships entirely and turn the Salvage drones from a fighter bay into an integrated/special weapon for the ship. Perhaps as a torpedo and add a lore description that in times of need the drones with their frontal cutting equipment, sturdy frame, and targeting systems serve as poor makeshift kinetic torpedos that can be sent to distract and target enemy ships' most vulnerable points? Turn them into a kinetic version of an even slower Salamander with more HP but kinetic half of the damage instead, perhaps even place them on top of the bays at the start of the game to see them neatly sitting and primed to be launched from them.
That's how I'd do it to balance it, counter the OP Converted Bays mod, and also be unique. They would serve no purpose but to saturate PD, distract smaller vessels chasing the salvagers, and crash on either shields or hopefully engines.
That's how a salvager and a junker would fight in space - throw his cheap replaceable junk toolbox and a bunch of scrap at the assailant hoping it distracts him or makes him trip, and then start running for your life. ;)
[close]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'll be investigating all this in the near future.
Most likely there will be some balancing changes in the next version in addition to the new character ability and ships. ;)

5ColouredWalker

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #47 on: March 11, 2024, 01:37:40 PM »

Just checking, are the salvage drone LPCs that can be inserted into shops supposed to improve fleet salvaging? They don't seem to do anything but do spawn in shops.
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Gopsky

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2024, 01:59:30 AM »

Just checking, are the salvage drone LPCs that can be inserted into shops supposed to improve fleet salvaging? They don't seem to do anything but do spawn in shops.

The drones themselves do not give any bonus. They were added by me as a gimmick for the hullmod "salvage drones" and will be reworked by me in the next update. :)

ReSilence

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #49 on: March 15, 2024, 11:02:29 AM »

Just checking, are the salvage drone LPCs that can be inserted into shops supposed to improve fleet salvaging? They don't seem to do anything but do spawn in shops.

The drones themselves do not give any bonus. They were added by me as a gimmick for the hullmod "salvage drones" and will be reworked by me in the next update. :)

You could integrate them into the Nomadic Survival mod (if the code is not already there), so if you have them - then you mine like an extra 5% more resources from planet per bay. I think most people who use your mod also use the Nomadic Survival by Sundog (Space Rats 4 life!). ;)

I'd still convert them into integrated weak kinetic LR torpedos with long reload. Desperation drones-turned-missiles as you run away. Would retain the usefulness of the sprite while having a cool gimmick.
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ReSilence

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2024, 11:13:44 AM »

quote:
Spoiler
I might be dumb but with Converted Fighter Bays Hull Mod doesn't the salvage stay the same even without the drones because it's a hull mod BUT with multiple bays don't I get a HUGE supplies maintenance discount?

While not a major issue on the vanilla Drone Tenders with their 12 Crew Compliment and 45 capacity, low OP, and only one bay, I get a massive discount (-15% per bay) on the bigger hulls, turning them into the crew transports with salvage buffs that have almost zero cost of maintenance to top it off.

I think the Reaver is the biggest offender here since his "extra crew needed" is not a downside but an actual benefit.
When I put it on a Reaver I get 100 Cargo space and gain 88 crew space due to the 40% discount And with an S-mod I get -30% of the supply costs/day. I don't get the penalty for my Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills because of the extra bays as well so that's an additional benefit. Even if you slap Additional Berthing for that yet another extra 150 crew (since it has a decent capacity as it is) the daily price goes up only by a smidge, otherwise that 20 survey reduction from Survey Equipment looks fancy. I slapped Cargo Holds on top since it still has 400 capacity worth investing into.

(With Bulk Transport and Makeshift Equipment) This thing:
- Costs me (7.88/-7.12) Supplies with Berthing. Without it and let's say Survey Equipment or Sensors it's just permanent -0.2/day (5.25/-9.75) but I get 150 less crew capacity.
- It requires 88 crew to maintain while having 600 capacity (450 without Additional Berthing).
- Has 1088 Cargo capacity with all the buffs due to innate 400.

For story point, I get 1/2 of an Atlas, a Salvager with extra benefits, and a Valkyrie troop transport in one ship. All for a price of less than 1 Supply per day and only one ship slot taken.
Not by much, but it seems a bit imbalanced.

I don't know if the Salvage Carrier has a lot of crew capacity and crew requirements, or if it has 4 bays like the sprite suggests but if it does, then Converted Fighter Bays provide me with an 80% discount on the crew, so it becomes a crew transport with all the salvagers benefits, but even if it's like a salvage rig it still can carry 200 extra stuff, AND with an S-mod that's -60% discount on the Supplies maintenance.

I think the Salvage Drones hull mod should be incompatible with the Converted Fighter Bays same way you cannot put Safety Overrides on a Monitor with a Flux Shunt, since that -15% discount per bay on an S-mod can get out of hand..., all that aside from the logic that a without salvage drones it still salvages as well as with them while having less crew.
The combo is just imbalanced on bigger hulls that have a lot of crew, that's the reason why the salvage rig doesn't have drones.
The downside is if you've picked Carrier Group and Fighter Uplink skills; a nomadic salvage fleet kind of makes sense to be carrier-focused with swarms of the tiny fighters yet both those skills suffer from extra bays unfortunately. thus Converted bays is my go-to.
But aside from those two skills the bays with useless drones are a benefit since they serve as a discount option and extra cargo and crew space!

The best way to do it would be to change the bays with Salvage Drones to not be counted by the game as Fighter Bays if it's possible.

The easiest and most fun solution; Remove the bays from the ships entirely and turn the Salvage drones from a fighter bay into an integrated/special weapon for the ship. Perhaps as a torpedo and add a lore description that in times of need the drones with their frontal cutting equipment, sturdy frame, and targeting systems serve as poor makeshift kinetic torpedos that can be sent to distract and target enemy ships' most vulnerable points? Turn them into a kinetic version of an even slower Salamander with more HP but kinetic half of the damage instead, perhaps even place them on top of the bays at the start of the game to see them neatly sitting and primed to be launched from them.
That's how I'd do it to balance it, counter the OP Converted Bays mod, and also be unique. They would serve no purpose but to saturate PD, distract smaller vessels chasing the salvagers, and crash on either shields or hopefully engines.
That's how a salvager and a junker would fight in space - throw his cheap replaceable junk toolbox and a bunch of scrap at the assailant hoping it distracts him or makes him trip, and then start running for your life. ;)
[close]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I'll be investigating all this in the near future.
Most likely there will be some balancing changes in the next version in addition to the new character ability and ships. ;)

I guess another solution would be to make Reavers 1 Burn slower so I have to S mod Drive Field on them if I want to drag them along with my 9-burn fleet, even if I pick Bulk Transport. On a slower fleet, I guess the discount or extra crew space wouldn't matter as much since that's potentially a slot that could be occupied by another Atlas, and you don't need extra crew space once you go past the colonization phase, they make the Salvage Rig obsolete, but that's the whole idea behind the mod I guess! ;D
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SpaceshipCaptainYukari

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2024, 10:04:09 PM »

Alright so I've found this mood to be pretty useful. It gives me access to salvage gantry in all the hull sizes.

There's some feedback i want to share with the Salvage Ship Expansion mod.
Apparently, despite being salvage ships, the ships added by the mod don't count as mining ships, even though the Vanilla Salvage Gantry ship counts.
I think you should add the appropriate mining ship strength for nex.

Also seems that other fleets don't use the ships. I have yet to see a scavenger fleet that uses a single ship in this mod. I think it's a config issue.

Also apparently i can install the Improvised Salvage Gantry hullmod to ships that already have the Salvage Gantry hullmod. Doesn't make logical sense but okay.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2024, 10:05:46 PM by SpaceshipCaptainYukari »
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Gopsky

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2024, 01:40:36 AM »

Alright so I've found this mood to be pretty useful. It gives me access to salvage gantry in all the hull sizes.
[...]
Thank you! :)

[...]
There's some feedback i want to share with the Salvage Ship Expansion mod.
Apparently, despite being salvage ships, the ships added by the mod don't count as mining ships, even though the Vanilla Salvage Gantry ship counts.
I think you should add the appropriate mining ship strength for nex.
[...]
To be honest, I didn't know anything about it until now, I'll have a look.

[...]
Also seems that other fleets don't use the ships. I have yet to see a scavenger fleet that uses a single ship in this mod. I think it's a config issue.
[...]
In my last playthrough, I saw some of my ships in Scavanger fleets, but to be on the safe side, I'll take another look.

[...]
Also apparently i can install the Improvised Salvage Gantry hullmod to ships that already have the Salvage Gantry hullmod. Doesn't make logical sense but okay.
Yes, that's quite illogical, that's true. But I've already added this point to my list and it will be changed with the next update.

Thanks for the feedback, it really helps me a lot as I seem to be overlooking or not knowing some things. :)

guto8797

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Re: [0.97a-R7] Salvage Ship Expansion v0.4.5
« Reply #53 on: Today at 09:17:32 AM »

I really love the mod, how is it that a simple mod adding more salvage ships of various sizes wasn't developed before is a mystery to me.

That being said, I usually favour minimalism and compatibility over tons of features. How do the new industries compare to those offered by popular mods like industrial evolution? Any plans to offer a separate version that includes only the ships and no changes to character abilities and such?

The new ships were kinda tough to find, had to use the ship procurer from stelnet and there would usually only be two salvage cruisers in the whole sector, usually behind military too.
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